8 ms·

I was probably never going to learn unity in the first place. But when the news came out that shifted to, "Well, now I'm definitely never going to learn unity.

by Verdex 3y ago

I was probably never going to learn unity in the first place. But when the news came out that shifted to, "Well, now I'm definitely never going to learn unity." However, I missed the news that Unity merged with ironSource. The runtime fees news filled me in on that and also filled me in on some of the less than savory things that ironSource has been up to in the past. Now my position has moved towards, "I guess I shouldn't play anything made in Unity (at least not on machines where I care about their security)." And cancelling the runtime fee isn't likely to shift my position.

JohnFen 3y ago
> Now my position has moved towards, "I guess I shouldn't play anything made in Unity I'm not a game dev at all, but this is where the whole thing has brought me as well. If it's based on Unity, I'll pass.
- Uehreka 3y ago
  Ah, I wish it were that easy, but a number of my favorite games (KSP, Outer Wilds, Disco Elysium off the top of my head) are made in Unity. If you play indie PC games you can’t boycott Unity without missing a ton of really good games.
  - srinivgp 3y ago
    If you play games you can't play games without missing a ton of really good games. There are _a ton_ of really good games.
    - Uehreka 3y ago
      The games market is large, but not infinite. Like, there may be many space games, but only one space sim that has the depth and complexity of KSP 1, and that’s KSP 1. Not to mention that a lot of gamers have no idea what engine their favorite games use. For instance, I was shocked to discover that Disco Elysium used Unity because it looks so different from the “stock Unity look”.
      - syncbehind 3y ago
        >Not to mention that a lot of gamers have no idea what engine their favorite games use. If you start to boycott something, you typically have done some research (why else would you have wanted to boycott it in the first place). I.e boycotting Nestle means that you research where the company may have their fingers in and avoid that.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > If you play indie PC games you can’t boycott Unity without missing a ton of really good games. That may be true, but so what? There are more great non-Unity-based games than I have time in my life to play anyway.
  - fcsp 3y ago
    I suppose this is going to change drastically going forward as game devs probably won't want to risk their livelihood on the whims of a company that is ok with making such changes
  - slowmovintarget 3y ago
    I suspect that kind of boycott would hurt the independent developers more than it hurts Unity.
    - syncbehind 3y ago
      Those developers will then need to pivot in response to market changes. But yes, that's often how it goes. If you boycott a child-labor produced coffee, and it just so happens that your favourite indie cafe uses that as their main coffee because it's so cheap! Yea, that cafe will suffer.
      - slowmovintarget 3y ago
        I'd be all for a boycott in your example, but not in the case of Unity... as a purchaser of games. As a developer, you'd better believe I'd be looking hard at Godot / Defold / Unreal... or turning off the Unity ads in my products. I don't think Unity's intended pricing change is morally equivalent to child labor.
        syncbehind 3y ago
        I used a hyperbole to get my point across. I'm not equating the two. I mean, even not using them as a development platform is something. But I don't get the logic behind supporting them as a purchaser of games? Is it just FOMO?
        slowmovintarget 3y ago
        No. It's because I don't believe it strikes at the right targets, for lack of a better metaphor. You get collateral damage that I don't think is worthwhile. If the desired goal is to have developers move away from Unity, Unity themselves have given enough incentive. You suggested boycotting the developers that use Unity. I don't get your scorched earth logic. It seems unreasonable to me.
        3y ago
  - syncbehind 3y ago
    > If you play indie PC games you can’t boycott Unity without missing a ton of really good games. The naivete involved in expecting to boycott a product without having any inconveniences never ceases to amuse me. The very nature of boycotting necessitates that you will miss out on things. If you never used the product/byproduct, what effect would your boycott have? It's like a bald person boycotting a hair cuttery, who cares?
    - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
      In the gaming world, boycotts are an absolute joke. I think many gamers don't even know what the word means and will pre-order and play the hell out of a game they're claiming to be boycotting.
- SXX 3y ago
  So you don't like Unity because of everything happen and how they threated game developers. And for that reason you want to refuse to pay those game developers? As it's now Unity dont collect any telemetry.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Unity already showed they were willing to change contract terms unilaterally, so why anyone should trust that they will stay doing what they currently do is beyond me.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Not exactly. I don't trust Unity because they've clearly demonstrated that they can't be trusted. I'm not avoiding Unity as some sort of solidarity with wronged developers, I'm avoiding Unity because I don't want to support a company that behaves that way. > As it's now Unity dont collect any telemetry. Maybe not (but maybe -- how would I know?), but Unity clearly has no problems throwing people under the bus if it suits them, so again -- they can't be trusted. On this point or any other.
  - RoyalHenOil 3y ago
    As demonstrated by their previous stance, Unity may choose to track your private data in the future, even on games you already own and purchased with the understanding that there would be no tracking. Tracking players is their intention, and although they have rolled it back (solely due to the strength of the backlash), they have revealed their hand. We now know that tracking players is how they want to monetize heading into the future, and that they have no qualms applying it retroactively to games you already own.
  - hn_acker 3y ago
    > So you don't like Unity because of everything happen and how they threated game developers. And for that reason you want to refuse to pay those game developers? Your framing is wrong. If I really want to buy a game but choose not to, I'm not "refus[ing] to pay" the game developer. Game developers don't deserve to be paid with my money if I decide not to get their games.
- TheGRS 3y ago
  This is a really weird takeaway for an end-user. This is punishing game developers for using a certain tool. Unless Unity is doing something adverse to the end user I don't see why that should be a factor in your game purchases. I've played plenty of great games made with Unity.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I don't like how Unity conducts their business, and I now actively distrust them, so it makes sense to add them to my list of "companies to avoid". I don't want to support businesses that operate as they do. The intent isn't to punish developers, of course, but continuing to give money to a company that I don't want to support is asking more of me than I'm willing to do. In the end, it's just me and my decision will have no effect on anybody. If enough other people also avoid Unity, then devs will have to adapt. That's just life.
adamredwoods 3y ago
Another thread said it best (paraphrased): they felt the power, and fear, of how one CEO's action that could change their livelihood. I've felt this when Flash was canceled for iOS. Steve Jobs's "letter about Flash" changed my job outlook in just one day.
jonplackett 3y ago
You’re just going to be punishing game devs who are locked in. Sure, make your own games with something else (although unreal has similar rev share) but it seems cruel to take this out on unity devs who have no option
- debaserab2 3y ago
  If the tool they use to make their game requires customers to install malware onto their machine you can't really blame the customer for avoiding software that is built with said tool.
  - EricE 3y ago
    Declaring they are installing malware is a pretty bold assertion. Care to back that up with something other than feelings?
    - debaserab2 3y ago
      If you've followed the Unity debacle I assume you've already read about this, but a cursory search for "Ironsource malware" on google yields: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/unity-ironsource-malware-came-from-bad-actors-who-tried-to-abuse-the-platform https://www.gamesindustry.biz/unity-ironsource-malware-came-... https://www.pcgamer.com/unity-is-merging-with-a-company-who-made-a-malware-installer/ https://www.pcgamer.com/unity-is-merging-with-a-company-who-...
      - qwytw 3y ago
        Is there any indication all of the IronSource or other ad stuff will not be optional? Not allowing developers to remove it from their games would certainly be a step too far (at this time anyway, who know what will they come up with in a couple of years).
        anankaie 3y ago
        The problem is that there is no way to trust that Unity will not alter the deal in an underhanded way in the future. I do not want my purchases beholden to their capricious whims. I sympathize with the devs, but sometimes it turns out that platform decisions made in the past are bad. It is what it is.

by Verdex 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

> Now my position has moved towards, "I guess I shouldn't play anything made in Unity I'm not a game dev at all, but this is where the whole thing has brought me as well. If it's based on Unity, I'll pass.

Uehreka 3y ago
Ah, I wish it were that easy, but a number of my favorite games (KSP, Outer Wilds, Disco Elysium off the top of my head) are made in Unity. If you play indie PC games you can’t boycott Unity without missing a ton of really good games.
- srinivgp 3y ago
  If you play games you can't play games without missing a ton of really good games. There are _a ton_ of really good games.
  - Uehreka 3y ago
    The games market is large, but not infinite. Like, there may be many space games, but only one space sim that has the depth and complexity of KSP 1, and that’s KSP 1. Not to mention that a lot of gamers have no idea what engine their favorite games use. For instance, I was shocked to discover that Disco Elysium used Unity because it looks so different from the “stock Unity look”.
    - syncbehind 3y ago
      >Not to mention that a lot of gamers have no idea what engine their favorite games use. If you start to boycott something, you typically have done some research (why else would you have wanted to boycott it in the first place). I.e boycotting Nestle means that you research where the company may have their fingers in and avoid that.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > If you play indie PC games you can’t boycott Unity without missing a ton of really good games. That may be true, but so what? There are more great non-Unity-based games than I have time in my life to play anyway.
- fcsp 3y ago
  I suppose this is going to change drastically going forward as game devs probably won't want to risk their livelihood on the whims of a company that is ok with making such changes
- slowmovintarget 3y ago
  I suspect that kind of boycott would hurt the independent developers more than it hurts Unity.
  - syncbehind 3y ago
    Those developers will then need to pivot in response to market changes. But yes, that's often how it goes. If you boycott a child-labor produced coffee, and it just so happens that your favourite indie cafe uses that as their main coffee because it's so cheap! Yea, that cafe will suffer.
    - slowmovintarget 3y ago
      I'd be all for a boycott in your example, but not in the case of Unity... as a purchaser of games. As a developer, you'd better believe I'd be looking hard at Godot / Defold / Unreal... or turning off the Unity ads in my products. I don't think Unity's intended pricing change is morally equivalent to child labor.
      - syncbehind 3y ago
        I used a hyperbole to get my point across. I'm not equating the two. I mean, even not using them as a development platform is something. But I don't get the logic behind supporting them as a purchaser of games? Is it just FOMO?
        slowmovintarget 3y ago
        No. It's because I don't believe it strikes at the right targets, for lack of a better metaphor. You get collateral damage that I don't think is worthwhile. If the desired goal is to have developers move away from Unity, Unity themselves have given enough incentive. You suggested boycotting the developers that use Unity. I don't get your scorched earth logic. It seems unreasonable to me.
        3y ago
- syncbehind 3y ago
  > If you play indie PC games you can’t boycott Unity without missing a ton of really good games. The naivete involved in expecting to boycott a product without having any inconveniences never ceases to amuse me. The very nature of boycotting necessitates that you will miss out on things. If you never used the product/byproduct, what effect would your boycott have? It's like a bald person boycotting a hair cuttery, who cares?
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    In the gaming world, boycotts are an absolute joke. I think many gamers don't even know what the word means and will pre-order and play the hell out of a game they're claiming to be boycotting.
SXX 3y ago
So you don't like Unity because of everything happen and how they threated game developers. And for that reason you want to refuse to pay those game developers? As it's now Unity dont collect any telemetry.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Unity already showed they were willing to change contract terms unilaterally, so why anyone should trust that they will stay doing what they currently do is beyond me.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Not exactly. I don't trust Unity because they've clearly demonstrated that they can't be trusted. I'm not avoiding Unity as some sort of solidarity with wronged developers, I'm avoiding Unity because I don't want to support a company that behaves that way. > As it's now Unity dont collect any telemetry. Maybe not (but maybe -- how would I know?), but Unity clearly has no problems throwing people under the bus if it suits them, so again -- they can't be trusted. On this point or any other.
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  As demonstrated by their previous stance, Unity may choose to track your private data in the future, even on games you already own and purchased with the understanding that there would be no tracking. Tracking players is their intention, and although they have rolled it back (solely due to the strength of the backlash), they have revealed their hand. We now know that tracking players is how they want to monetize heading into the future, and that they have no qualms applying it retroactively to games you already own.
- hn_acker 3y ago
  > So you don't like Unity because of everything happen and how they threated game developers. And for that reason you want to refuse to pay those game developers? Your framing is wrong. If I really want to buy a game but choose not to, I'm not "refus[ing] to pay" the game developer. Game developers don't deserve to be paid with my money if I decide not to get their games.
TheGRS 3y ago
This is a really weird takeaway for an end-user. This is punishing game developers for using a certain tool. Unless Unity is doing something adverse to the end user I don't see why that should be a factor in your game purchases. I've played plenty of great games made with Unity.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I don't like how Unity conducts their business, and I now actively distrust them, so it makes sense to add them to my list of "companies to avoid". I don't want to support businesses that operate as they do. The intent isn't to punish developers, of course, but continuing to give money to a company that I don't want to support is asking more of me than I'm willing to do. In the end, it's just me and my decision will have no effect on anybody. If enough other people also avoid Unity, then devs will have to adapt. That's just life.

adamredwoods 3y ago

Another thread said it best (paraphrased): they felt the power, and fear, of how one CEO's action that could change their livelihood. I've felt this when Flash was canceled for iOS. Steve Jobs's "letter about Flash" changed my job outlook in just one day.

jonplackett 3y ago

You’re just going to be punishing game devs who are locked in. Sure, make your own games with something else (although unreal has similar rev share) but it seems cruel to take this out on unity devs who have no option

debaserab2 3y ago
If the tool they use to make their game requires customers to install malware onto their machine you can't really blame the customer for avoiding software that is built with said tool.
- EricE 3y ago
  Declaring they are installing malware is a pretty bold assertion. Care to back that up with something other than feelings?
  - debaserab2 3y ago
    If you've followed the Unity debacle I assume you've already read about this, but a cursory search for "Ironsource malware" on google yields: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/unity-ironsource-malware-came-from-bad-actors-who-tried-to-abuse-the-platform https://www.gamesindustry.biz/unity-ironsource-malware-came-... https://www.pcgamer.com/unity-is-merging-with-a-company-who-made-a-malware-installer/ https://www.pcgamer.com/unity-is-merging-with-a-company-who-...
    - qwytw 3y ago
      Is there any indication all of the IronSource or other ad stuff will not be optional? Not allowing developers to remove it from their games would certainly be a step too far (at this time anyway, who know what will they come up with in a couple of years).
      - anankaie 3y ago
        The problem is that there is no way to trust that Unity will not alter the deal in an underhanded way in the future. I do not want my purchases beholden to their capricious whims. I sympathize with the devs, but sometimes it turns out that platform decisions made in the past are bad. It is what it is.