5 ms·

Mobile providers are a different beast because there’s a limit on radio spectrum. Throttling is necessary.

HumblyTossed 3y ago
But throttling only the competition is not.
_fat_santa 3y ago
Eh, I'd argue it's still a business decision. It's still possible to find "true unlimited" data plans with some companies. I've got one with Cricket Wireless.
- flangola7 3y ago
  Those still throttle after a soft cap.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  They do mess with your data connection though[0]. For instance, they automatically downgrade video and appear to compress images "on your behalf"[0] regardless of what plan you're on. I'm somewhat dubious on the idea that their Cricket More plan is actually unlimited, but I'm pressed for time and can't read their more dense terms of service around the plan, but I'm assuming they have a congestion clause buried in there, despite what the linked FAQ claims [0]: https://www.cricketwireless.com/legal-info/mobile-broadband-information.html https://www.cricketwireless.com/legal-info/mobile-broadband-...
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    I know how they do that with video, but how do they extra compress images when most traffic is https? It works with video because all video sites automatically adjust quality based on throughput so they just figure out when you’re streaming video and then throttle. But most websites don’t automatically change image quality based on throughput and pages load more quickly and are harder to shape…
    - no_wizard 3y ago
      No idea, however from the linked page, they say they do: >Cricket compresses all images that are embedded in web pages in either of two industry standard formats (JPEG and GIF), regardless of the source or content of the web page or the application used to view it. Cricket strives to compress web page images to provide a high quality user experience where the average consumer should not notice a difference between the source image and the compressed image.
      - vlovich123 3y ago
        The only way is if there’s some cooperation between the site and ISP where the site knows to apply extra compression for the ISPs address range. Otherwise I don’t see how that could work (and also trivially bypassed when on VPN or even something like Apple Private Relay although the latter may still tunnel through some kind of mobile ISP info - not sure)
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  All mobile networks throttle in terms of different people’s data having different levels of priority. https://www.reddit.com/r/NoContract/comments/tn4733/qci_level_explained_2022_march_lower_qci_is_better/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NoContract/comments/tn4733/qci_leve... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QoS_Class_Identifier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QoS_Class_Identifier
- 6DM 3y ago
  It's unlimited but throttled during peak usage so that the primary network customers get priority. I think cricket wireless is an MNVO, see the drawbacks of an MNVO here: https://utilitiesone.com/comparing-mobile-virtual-network-operators-is-it-worth-switching https://utilitiesone.com/comparing-mobile-virtual-network-op...
deelowe 3y ago
Let's take the null hypothesis that these incentives push all video streaming to Apple+. The total bandwidth hasn't changed, all that's happened is that is it's only streamed over Apple+ now. How does this help with their spectrum constraints?
- mrWiz 3y ago
  Do you think that /all/ streaming would be pushed to Apple+? What if some people simply reduced the amount they streamed over the cell link?
- toast0 3y ago
  T-Mobile USA has a pretty user friendly version of this on many/most of its plans. If a music streaming service participates to label its traffic, that data is zero rated for eligible users. If a video streaming service participates to label its traffic and limit bandwidth (advertising says 480p, but I think it's really a bitrate cap), then data is zero rated for eligible users. On plans with a high speed data cap, users can opt out of the bandwidth limiting and get potentially higher quality streaming (depending on network conditions) but the data usage will be charged against the cap. There's no charge for providers to participate. I don't know how zero-rating music streaming helps with spectrum; that's probably more of an inducement to use data, but music streaming is low bandwidth, and maybe there's some magic to accumulate those packets and send as a batch rather than one at a time and therefore save some framing bandwidth. For video it's clearly a bandwidth thing. If you can reduce to the target, that's good for their spectrum management, so you get a carrot. Also, it encourages bandwidth sensitive streaming (which many services were already doing), so that if the conditions are poor for a particular user/cell, video bandwidth will be responsive and reduce automatically.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    So how do I sign up to get my home media server added to be zero-rated?
    - toast0 3y ago
Permik 3y ago
Hello, Finland here. I have a true unlimited phone plan. Unlimited texts, unlimited calls, 200Mbit/s of bandwidth with unlimited data. 27€ per month. Yes, the bandwidth is capped, but getting 200 megs is possible most of the time, it's really more of an exception to not get the full speed. Sometimes some cells can become congested, but that's really rare.
- sfifs 3y ago
  There are about 70 cities in the world with a larger population than the whole of country of Finland - so maybe there is a representativeness challenge in this comparison.
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    That means it actually cost more to build the infrastructure per capita.
    - lr4444lr 3y ago
      Yeah, but generally network costs grow with n^2 the number of users.
      - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
        What do you mean by network costs? Fewer cell towers per user is surely cheaper assuming each user is consuming the same amount of content.
        lr4444lr 3y ago
        Error correction, packet broadcasting per node, dynamic load rebalancing... the real world costs of any network increase proportional to the square of the nodes.
rsingel 3y ago
No, it's not. Cutting back each user's allotment temporarily during times of congestion is necessary, but otherwise there's no technical reason to throttle, let alone choose one particular kind of app. If radio spectrum is so scarce, how are Mobile and Verizon selling unlimited 5g home internet service?
- vel0city 3y ago
  I think a lot of those home 5G services are using the higher frequency 5G bands, which are often not great for portable devices.
- brightball 3y ago
  Additionally, 5G is closer to wifi than anything else. They're putting a lot more access points with shorter range around closer to homes. And it does become congested during high traffic times. That's an ideal example of the limitation. A single tower with a wide range can't handle the same volume of devices in the area. So by using 5G it's just closer and closer to home, with fewer people using it at each point. No question that it solves the last mile problem for these companies though. It's a lot easier to run fiber to an access point at the edge of your neighborhood than it is to run it to every house in that neighborhood.
babypuncher 3y ago
Then throttle everyone equally. Don't throttle your competitors while exempting your own subsidiaries, that is unfair.

But throttling only the competition is not.

Eh, I'd argue it's still a business decision. It's still possible to find "true unlimited" data plans with some companies. I've got one with Cricket Wireless.

flangola7 3y ago
Those still throttle after a soft cap.
no_wizard 3y ago
They do mess with your data connection though[0]. For instance, they automatically downgrade video and appear to compress images "on your behalf"[0] regardless of what plan you're on. I'm somewhat dubious on the idea that their Cricket More plan is actually unlimited, but I'm pressed for time and can't read their more dense terms of service around the plan, but I'm assuming they have a congestion clause buried in there, despite what the linked FAQ claims [0]: https://www.cricketwireless.com/legal-info/mobile-broadband-information.html https://www.cricketwireless.com/legal-info/mobile-broadband-...
- vlovich123 3y ago
  I know how they do that with video, but how do they extra compress images when most traffic is https? It works with video because all video sites automatically adjust quality based on throughput so they just figure out when you’re streaming video and then throttle. But most websites don’t automatically change image quality based on throughput and pages load more quickly and are harder to shape…
  - no_wizard 3y ago
    No idea, however from the linked page, they say they do: >Cricket compresses all images that are embedded in web pages in either of two industry standard formats (JPEG and GIF), regardless of the source or content of the web page or the application used to view it. Cricket strives to compress web page images to provide a high quality user experience where the average consumer should not notice a difference between the source image and the compressed image.
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      The only way is if there’s some cooperation between the site and ISP where the site knows to apply extra compression for the ISPs address range. Otherwise I don’t see how that could work (and also trivially bypassed when on VPN or even something like Apple Private Relay although the latter may still tunnel through some kind of mobile ISP info - not sure)
lotsofpulp 3y ago
All mobile networks throttle in terms of different people’s data having different levels of priority. https://www.reddit.com/r/NoContract/comments/tn4733/qci_level_explained_2022_march_lower_qci_is_better/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NoContract/comments/tn4733/qci_leve... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QoS_Class_Identifier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QoS_Class_Identifier
6DM 3y ago
It's unlimited but throttled during peak usage so that the primary network customers get priority. I think cricket wireless is an MNVO, see the drawbacks of an MNVO here: https://utilitiesone.com/comparing-mobile-virtual-network-operators-is-it-worth-switching https://utilitiesone.com/comparing-mobile-virtual-network-op...

deelowe 3y ago

Let's take the null hypothesis that these incentives push all video streaming to Apple+. The total bandwidth hasn't changed, all that's happened is that is it's only streamed over Apple+ now. How does this help with their spectrum constraints?

mrWiz 3y ago
Do you think that /all/ streaming would be pushed to Apple+? What if some people simply reduced the amount they streamed over the cell link?
toast0 3y ago
T-Mobile USA has a pretty user friendly version of this on many/most of its plans. If a music streaming service participates to label its traffic, that data is zero rated for eligible users. If a video streaming service participates to label its traffic and limit bandwidth (advertising says 480p, but I think it's really a bitrate cap), then data is zero rated for eligible users. On plans with a high speed data cap, users can opt out of the bandwidth limiting and get potentially higher quality streaming (depending on network conditions) but the data usage will be charged against the cap. There's no charge for providers to participate. I don't know how zero-rating music streaming helps with spectrum; that's probably more of an inducement to use data, but music streaming is low bandwidth, and maybe there's some magic to accumulate those packets and send as a batch rather than one at a time and therefore save some framing bandwidth. For video it's clearly a bandwidth thing. If you can reduce to the target, that's good for their spectrum management, so you get a carrot. Also, it encourages bandwidth sensitive streaming (which many services were already doing), so that if the conditions are poor for a particular user/cell, video bandwidth will be responsive and reduce automatically.
- vel0city 3y ago
  So how do I sign up to get my home media server added to be zero-rated?
  - toast0 3y ago

Permik 3y ago

Hello, Finland here. I have a true unlimited phone plan. Unlimited texts, unlimited calls, 200Mbit/s of bandwidth with unlimited data. 27€ per month. Yes, the bandwidth is capped, but getting 200 megs is possible most of the time, it's really more of an exception to not get the full speed. Sometimes some cells can become congested, but that's really rare.

sfifs 3y ago
There are about 70 cities in the world with a larger population than the whole of country of Finland - so maybe there is a representativeness challenge in this comparison.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  That means it actually cost more to build the infrastructure per capita.
  - lr4444lr 3y ago
    Yeah, but generally network costs grow with n^2 the number of users.
    - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
      What do you mean by network costs? Fewer cell towers per user is surely cheaper assuming each user is consuming the same amount of content.
      - lr4444lr 3y ago
        Error correction, packet broadcasting per node, dynamic load rebalancing... the real world costs of any network increase proportional to the square of the nodes.

rsingel 3y ago

No, it's not. Cutting back each user's allotment temporarily during times of congestion is necessary, but otherwise there's no technical reason to throttle, let alone choose one particular kind of app. If radio spectrum is so scarce, how are Mobile and Verizon selling unlimited 5g home internet service?

vel0city 3y ago
I think a lot of those home 5G services are using the higher frequency 5G bands, which are often not great for portable devices.
brightball 3y ago
Additionally, 5G is closer to wifi than anything else. They're putting a lot more access points with shorter range around closer to homes. And it does become congested during high traffic times. That's an ideal example of the limitation. A single tower with a wide range can't handle the same volume of devices in the area. So by using 5G it's just closer and closer to home, with fewer people using it at each point. No question that it solves the last mile problem for these companies though. It's a lot easier to run fiber to an access point at the edge of your neighborhood than it is to run it to every house in that neighborhood.

babypuncher 3y ago

Then throttle everyone equally. Don't throttle your competitors while exempting your own subsidiaries, that is unfair.