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> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex Here're the categories you could argue th

by unalone 15y ago

> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex Here're the categories you could argue the bot falls into. The point of the "that's what she said" is to point out when phrases sound like something a woman might have said in bed or during some sort of sexual activity, furthering the already staggeringly vast perception our society has of women as primarily sexual objects. It's not what I'd call "grossly" sexist, but if somebody's objecting to it, she absolutely has a reason to feel uncomfortable about it. I disagree that the supervisor is necessary here. First off, that's making an appeal to authority and such appeals can be pretty irritating; second off, that's trying to solve the problem privately rather than in public space. By making this bot, Jessamyn says that her voice is as valuable as anybody else's voice. If somebody else wants to make a bot that makes crude sex jokes, she can make a bot that quotes notable women. And rather than making a bot that's irritating or one-note, it sounds like she made a bot that has a variety of colorful responses, to the point where one of her coworkers told her how much he appreciates it. Remember that sexism is about the reinforcement of cultural stereotypes, rather than being just about gross bigotry or discrimination. What's sexist is that people assume, in a workplace, that jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable. Those jokes make me a little uncomfortable even in a casual environment; it's kind of gross that people are okay with them at work. The sexism isn't one person consciously thinking "Oh man let's women the butt of jokes about sex!", it's that women-as-sex-objects is such a pervasive trope that we don't notice it unless somebody like Jessamyn points it out to us.

tomp 15y ago
> jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? I can also totally imagine the following situation: Coworker: Did I come too early? Another coworker: That's what he said! Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed.
- unalone 15y ago
  > If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? It depends on the audience. I think that sexist jokes are in as poor taste in a workplace as racist jokes would be. I'd also be against black jokes or Mexican jokes or Jewish jokes or jokes about Catholic pedophilia. Even if the extent of the joke was something like "I'm not going to the pub with you all, I'm such a Jew", I'd feel uncomfortable; if somebody wrote a bot that was designed to repeatedly make those jokes, I'd be upset. As Jessamyn says: > Now, I admit to having made this joke myself, at times. Once in a while, I even find it funny. What I don’t find funny is a bot we have in our general IRC channel at work, that has some basic AI devoted to determining when to interject TWSS into the conversation. And the joke is not that women say funny things while in bed. The joke is, "Oh, that thing you just said reminded me of fucking a woman." It's funny in high school when everybody's a virgin, and I've found that as my college friends have gotten themselves laid, it's ceased to become very amusing. The same way I haven't heard a black or Mexican joke in a few years that managed to rise above its racism to become even remotely amusing. Jokes about people having sex can be funny; "that's what she said" will always be a joke the brunt of which is the faceless fuck-object woman. Maybe that's fine in moderation, especially if "that's what he said" jokes are mixed in, but I think we all agree that if somebody's feeling upset by the jokes, it's not a huge loss to our comedic palettes to have to find another source of humor, right? We're all capable of rising beyond that?
  - rimantas 15y ago
    And in the end there will be no jokes. > I think we all agree that if somebody's feeling upset by > the jokes, it's not a huge loss to our comedic palettes > to have to find another source of humor, right? No. I strongly strongly disagree. I don't want a thermal dead of society, I don't want knee-jerk reaction to anything I say because I just mentioned some forbidden word, no matter with what intention and what context. We are slipping toward the concept thought-crime, and I surely don't want what. Neither do I want to live in the world where all must pretend, that genders don't exist. You ar offended but what I say? To quote Stephen Fry: "So fucking what?". To think that it is impossible to tell and be entertained by non-PC jokes is as moronic as thinking that you cannot write (or enjoy) crime fiction without being a murderer.
- deleted 15y ago
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- rayiner 15y ago
  > Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed. You're assuming that just because it's the same subject it has the same implications to both genders. There is no basis for making that assumption. Take, for example, the statement "X is a slut." Does that have the same implication for both genders? No. Because of our societal attitudes, it has much graver implications for a woman than for a man. Now, consider the statement "X acts kind of rapey." Does that have the same implications for both gender? Again, no. A woman can shrug that off easily. A man, meanwhile, would be legitimately upset about that statement.
- deleted 15y ago
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Strallus 15y ago
Most slang words for penis (and other slang words describing men) are also normal words. (wood, hard, sausage, pork, balls) This is not the case with slang words for the female anatomy, which usually have no place in daily conversation. Google "slang for penis" and "slang for vagina" if you don't believe me/don't know very many slang words. Consequently, something a women would say in bed is more likely to crop up in general conversation than something a guy would say in bed. I really don't see this joke as being sexist at all, and it doesn't objectify women. Who cares if a woman might say that in bed? The fact that the woman is the one talking seems to indicate that she is less of a sexual object, not more of one.
- DanBC 15y ago
  That's a little bit hetero normative. About the sexism: She didn't make a big fuss. She just coded a neat funny bot that only talks when triggered by a certain joke. She's highlighting how tiresome some jokes are when repeated too often. She's not say "Toxic Environment because of constant sexist remarks"; she isn't calling for anyone to be disciplined or sacked. She's just talking to people.
  - Strallus 15y ago
    I'm not calling her out for making a big fuss. I was just pointing out that, as far as I can tell, this joke really doesn't have its root in sexism. Other people are saying the joke is sexist, I'm saying it's not. That's all.
    - rimantas 15y ago
      The case is lost. You don't find many who would even bother to think about what you are saying, you will be just down-voted by knee-jerkers, who cannot be bothered by contemplating what is sexism, what isn't. They just know what's not acceptable and act accordingly. HN is humor free zone, no matter what kind of humor that is.
      - unalone 15y ago

by unalone 15y ago

tomp 15y ago

> jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? I can also totally imagine the following situation: Coworker: Did I come too early? Another coworker: That's what he said! Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed.

unalone 15y ago
> If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? It depends on the audience. I think that sexist jokes are in as poor taste in a workplace as racist jokes would be. I'd also be against black jokes or Mexican jokes or Jewish jokes or jokes about Catholic pedophilia. Even if the extent of the joke was something like "I'm not going to the pub with you all, I'm such a Jew", I'd feel uncomfortable; if somebody wrote a bot that was designed to repeatedly make those jokes, I'd be upset. As Jessamyn says: > Now, I admit to having made this joke myself, at times. Once in a while, I even find it funny. What I don’t find funny is a bot we have in our general IRC channel at work, that has some basic AI devoted to determining when to interject TWSS into the conversation. And the joke is not that women say funny things while in bed. The joke is, "Oh, that thing you just said reminded me of fucking a woman." It's funny in high school when everybody's a virgin, and I've found that as my college friends have gotten themselves laid, it's ceased to become very amusing. The same way I haven't heard a black or Mexican joke in a few years that managed to rise above its racism to become even remotely amusing. Jokes about people having sex can be funny; "that's what she said" will always be a joke the brunt of which is the faceless fuck-object woman. Maybe that's fine in moderation, especially if "that's what he said" jokes are mixed in, but I think we all agree that if somebody's feeling upset by the jokes, it's not a huge loss to our comedic palettes to have to find another source of humor, right? We're all capable of rising beyond that?
- rimantas 15y ago
  And in the end there will be no jokes. > I think we all agree that if somebody's feeling upset by > the jokes, it's not a huge loss to our comedic palettes > to have to find another source of humor, right? No. I strongly strongly disagree. I don't want a thermal dead of society, I don't want knee-jerk reaction to anything I say because I just mentioned some forbidden word, no matter with what intention and what context. We are slipping toward the concept thought-crime, and I surely don't want what. Neither do I want to live in the world where all must pretend, that genders don't exist. You ar offended but what I say? To quote Stephen Fry: "So fucking what?". To think that it is impossible to tell and be entertained by non-PC jokes is as moronic as thinking that you cannot write (or enjoy) crime fiction without being a murderer.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 15y ago
> Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed. You're assuming that just because it's the same subject it has the same implications to both genders. There is no basis for making that assumption. Take, for example, the statement "X is a slut." Does that have the same implication for both genders? No. Because of our societal attitudes, it has much graver implications for a woman than for a man. Now, consider the statement "X acts kind of rapey." Does that have the same implications for both gender? Again, no. A woman can shrug that off easily. A man, meanwhile, would be legitimately upset about that statement.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

Strallus 15y ago

Most slang words for penis (and other slang words describing men) are also normal words. (wood, hard, sausage, pork, balls) This is not the case with slang words for the female anatomy, which usually have no place in daily conversation. Google "slang for penis" and "slang for vagina" if you don't believe me/don't know very many slang words. Consequently, something a women would say in bed is more likely to crop up in general conversation than something a guy would say in bed. I really don't see this joke as being sexist at all, and it doesn't objectify women. Who cares if a woman might say that in bed? The fact that the woman is the one talking seems to indicate that she is less of a sexual object, not more of one.

DanBC 15y ago
That's a little bit hetero normative. About the sexism: She didn't make a big fuss. She just coded a neat funny bot that only talks when triggered by a certain joke. She's highlighting how tiresome some jokes are when repeated too often. She's not say "Toxic Environment because of constant sexist remarks"; she isn't calling for anyone to be disciplined or sacked. She's just talking to people.
- Strallus 15y ago
  I'm not calling her out for making a big fuss. I was just pointing out that, as far as I can tell, this joke really doesn't have its root in sexism. Other people are saying the joke is sexist, I'm saying it's not. That's all.
  - rimantas 15y ago
    The case is lost. You don't find many who would even bother to think about what you are saying, you will be just down-voted by knee-jerkers, who cannot be bothered by contemplating what is sexism, what isn't. They just know what's not acceptable and act accordingly. HN is humor free zone, no matter what kind of humor that is.
    - unalone 15y ago