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I apologize in advance for the tone, but as a Russian I have a question - are you racist? Since Sergey Brin and Mila Yovovich are "russians", do you imply that

I apologize in advance for the tone, but as a Russian I have a question - are you racist? Since Sergey Brin and Mila Yovovich are "russians", do you imply that Google and Hollywood are part of this botnet? The most famous hacker is Kevin Mitnick [american] and most recent hackers charged/arrested by FBI are also american citizens. Why don't you change "russians" to "americans"? Or may be "new_zealanders" [Kim dot com]? Or may be "brits" [UK kid, extradicted recently to US on copyright violation charges]. If you would change to "americans", I just wonder whether some people will feel offended and how many?

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
Indeed. The word criminals would be more accurate and less pejorative.
- rplnt 15y ago
  "Russian" is pejorative?
  - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
    Sorry, my intent was to suggest that the sentence was pejorative towards Russians. I may have been unclear and reading up I may have misused the word - can pejorative apply to a sentence or just to a word or phrase?
    - rplnt 15y ago
      Yeah, I was just not sure if you were using it on the whole comment or making a silly joke. And I think it's a word only, at least in a language I speak naturally. That is not English however.
  - aqme28 15y ago
    Any word can be a pejorative if used as such, you hacker.
icebraining 15y ago
I agree that it is a prejudice and should be avoided, but it's not completely groundless: According to industry analyses, Russia accounts for about 35 percent of global cybercrime revenue, or between $2.5 and $3.7 billion. That’s wildly out of proportion with the country’s share of the global information technology market (which is around 1 percent). http://themoscownews.com/siloviks_scoundrels/20111121/189221309.html http://themoscownews.com/siloviks_scoundrels/20111121/189221... It's not that Russians are inherently cybercriminals, but the country does seem to be currently suffering from conditions that help it foster.
- daemon13 15y ago
  thank you :-) Just to point to a couple of facts:- 1. From the same article: "Why does every hacking and cyberscam story – real or fictional – seem to have a Russia connection? In part, it is prejudice and laziness. The stereotype of the Russian hacker has become such a common media trope that it gets recycled again and again. It also offers a handy update for those looking for new ways to perpetuate the ‘Russian threat.’" 2. Following article line on FSB - anyone knows who hacked PCs of Iran nuke facility? If we judge on who had a reason - US - we shall assume that US have the same or even better hacker team than Russia [very clever OS hack that resulted in hardware malfunction at the nuke plant, thus significantly reducing its output - was covered in 2011]. 3. I suspect that most of 'industry analysis' is funded by government agencies, directly or indirectly. So if the conclusion of 'industry analysis' would be that US accounts for 35 or 65 percent of global cybercrime revenue, then the next question would be - what the hell are the various government agencies doing and how effective do they spend government/taxpayers' money? 4. From the same article: "However, a more basic answer is that a disproportionate number of Russians have worldclass math and computers skills, yet not the kind of jobs to use them legitimately. Although many firms in the industry are based in Russia, or else hire Russians, there is a pool of skilled but under-employed programmers who embrace the hacker world for fun, out of disillusion, or for profit." Anyone can show me a skilled but under-employed programmer in Russia? "Skilled but under-emplored programmer in Russia" is like Bigfoot [also known as sasquatch] - everyone heard about him/her, but noone saw. It is a legend... But of course there are russians, americans, germans, brits, and other nations, which do quite some harm. I just do not think there is a legitimate way to define the winner. Sorry for off-topic rambling, probably due to habit of enjoying fact-based debate, which resulted from my days in finance ;-))
tomelders 15y ago
I think you're playing the race card and ignoring the facts. Which is pretty lame. As a brit, I fully appreciate and understand why some people in the world hate all britons. We've done some bad things as a nation in recent years and people have a right to tar us all with the same brush. I understand why it would be unsafe for me to walk the streets of Kabul or Baghdad. If any brit has a problem with the way other people look at them, it's their job as a citizen in a democracy to affect the change they want to see in people's attitude towards this country and it's people. Except when it's the French. There's no pleasing those cheese eating surrender monkeys.
- daemon13 15y ago
  What exactly is lame? Pointing to possible misuse of race/nationality angle? I do not think so. Re > it's their job as a citizen in a democracy to affect the change they want to see in people's attitude towards this country and it's people. I believe that my job is to take care of my family and myself, because noone else, and no any government, will do this.
  - regularfry 15y ago
    That's the difference between being a participatory citizen and an inhabitant.
- tripzilch 15y ago
  > As a brit, I fully appreciate and understand why some people in the world hate all britons. We've done some bad things as a nation in recent years and people have a right to tar us all with the same brush. Well that's cute, but I disagree. I'm Dutch, we've done some rather bad things in our colonial times, yet it is not okay for Indonesians or South Africans to hate all Dutch. Similarly it is NOT okay for Dutch people to hate all Germans just because they invaded us in 40-45 (WW2), because they took our bikes or because they tend to defeat us in international soccer games. > If any brit has a problem with the way other people look at them, it's their job as a citizen in a democracy to affect the change they want to see in people's attitude towards this country and it's people. I'd agree with you on that point if only you weren't highly overestimating the level of influence "any Brit" has on these matters, compared to how much "some Brits" have. Same for any democracy. Even those mythical ones that work. I'm responsible for my own actions, not for those of some bigshot that claims to represent "me" (one individual in a group of several million of that claim). If you feel that's not right or self-centred and I should do better, I'll try to take responsibility for my own actions extra hard, but I refuse to take on those of some idiot I hardly have any control over. Best I can do with my little vote is to not vote for Geert Wilders--but as you may or may not have noticed, it didn't help much. So am I to feel responsible for that turdmongler? Fuck no! Yet will I discreetly defecate in the kitchen or bathroom sink of anyone I encounter that appears to subscribe to Wilders' moronic ideas? You can count on it, and that's all the responsibility I will take. > Except when it's the French. There's no pleasing those cheese eating surrender monkeys. hur hur hur :-/ I'm all for a bit more humorous light-hearted poking on HN, but I'd rather do without crap like this. Made it real hard to read The Black Swan when Taleb continuously did the same, too.
ceejayoz 15y ago
Since when is "Russian" a race?
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  From the perspective of racism (which is the context here) it's perfectly valid. The UN's definition of racial descrimination: "the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."
- ben0x539 15y ago
  Russian refers to anything related to Russia, including: * Russians (russkiye), an ethnic group of the East Slavic peoples, primarily living in Russia and neighboring countries (where they are also known as Ruthenians or by other names) </wikipedia> Close enough?
- scott_s 15y ago
  I had a colleague who was from the Ukraine, and I once referred to him as Ukrainian, and he stiffly responded, "I am Russian." From that, I assumed that some people consider it an ethnic group independent of the nation.
  - pavel_lishin 15y ago
    A lot of people from Eastern Europe are very sensitive about that sort of thing; Russia's domination of the USSR and various brutalities are still fresh in memory, and besides, referring to any Eastern European as a Russian is akin to calling someone from Guatemala as a Mexican. Some people are more sensitive about it than others. (I was born in Russia, and don't particularly care, but I'm aware of other people's sensitivities.) This happens in other parts of the world, too, of course. I once asked a girl in college if she was from India; she gave me a hateful death stare and coldly declared that she was from Bangladesh.
tptacek 15y ago
It was clumsily worded but I think we all know he didn't mean to imply that all of Russia was running botnets; he was alluding to Russian organized crime.
freehunter 15y ago
I work in information security, and I can give you a rough breakdown on botnet sites we've run into over the last year. (rough numbers) 25% have been Chinese (or linked to Chinese hackers, but using distributed hosting of hijacked servers around the world) 5% have been US-based. 10% have been Indian. 10% have been "other", including Canada/Mexico/Latin America, Africa, and Western Europe (like the German(?) Conficker worm) A full 50% have been linked to the Russian Federation (and other former Soviet countries). Why is this? Everyone has their theories, but mine is the combination of 1. Russia (and Eastern Europe) is a huge area. 2. Russian mafia really ramped up their cybercrime efforts after 1991 when the Soviet Union was retired. 3. Enforcement of cybercrime laws in Russia is lacking in comparison to Western nations, for various reasons. Many other countries, including the US, have their own hackers and cybercrime groups. China and Russia are much, much more effective, though, and it's fashionable to hate on "commies" in the Western media.
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  You forgot to mention that the level of technical educational in Russia is quite high. Combined with mediocre quality of Russian business managers it produces oversupply of tech specialists. That in turn fuels rapid development of botnet ecosystem.
- daemon13 15y ago
  Another reason (4) is that quite a lot of people [majority] download audio/video content and install cracked software on their Windows! home PCs. I agree that external environment provided much more fertile ground for criminal activities [incl tech] in former USSR. The key words are "fashionable" and "Western media". We all can observe the influence of media on people's perceptions of events, countries, nationalities...
tomjen3 15y ago
To me it is clear that he meant Russian hackers (as it would have been if it had say Chinese) and I doubt anybody else is confused over this. Given that, writing hackers was redundant and should be dropped.
Angostura 15y ago
Fun though it always is to accuse people of racism. "The W32.Sality family of threats has been around for some time as the first versions surfaced in 2003 and may have originated in Russia" http://www.symantec.com/security_response/writeup.jsp?docid=2006-011714-3948-99 http://www.symantec.com/security_response/writeup.jsp?docid=...
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
gcb 15y ago
but i bet you never request your money back after an action movie depict a bad guy in the desert wearing a turban, right? yeah, i thought so.

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago

Indeed. The word criminals would be more accurate and less pejorative.

rplnt 15y ago
"Russian" is pejorative?
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  Sorry, my intent was to suggest that the sentence was pejorative towards Russians. I may have been unclear and reading up I may have misused the word - can pejorative apply to a sentence or just to a word or phrase?
  - rplnt 15y ago
    Yeah, I was just not sure if you were using it on the whole comment or making a silly joke. And I think it's a word only, at least in a language I speak naturally. That is not English however.
- aqme28 15y ago
  Any word can be a pejorative if used as such, you hacker.

icebraining 15y ago

I agree that it is a prejudice and should be avoided, but it's not completely groundless: According to industry analyses, Russia accounts for about 35 percent of global cybercrime revenue, or between $2.5 and $3.7 billion. That’s wildly out of proportion with the country’s share of the global information technology market (which is around 1 percent). http://themoscownews.com/siloviks_scoundrels/20111121/189221309.html http://themoscownews.com/siloviks_scoundrels/20111121/189221... It's not that Russians are inherently cybercriminals, but the country does seem to be currently suffering from conditions that help it foster.

daemon13 15y ago
thank you :-) Just to point to a couple of facts:- 1. From the same article: "Why does every hacking and cyberscam story – real or fictional – seem to have a Russia connection? In part, it is prejudice and laziness. The stereotype of the Russian hacker has become such a common media trope that it gets recycled again and again. It also offers a handy update for those looking for new ways to perpetuate the ‘Russian threat.’" 2. Following article line on FSB - anyone knows who hacked PCs of Iran nuke facility? If we judge on who had a reason - US - we shall assume that US have the same or even better hacker team than Russia [very clever OS hack that resulted in hardware malfunction at the nuke plant, thus significantly reducing its output - was covered in 2011]. 3. I suspect that most of 'industry analysis' is funded by government agencies, directly or indirectly. So if the conclusion of 'industry analysis' would be that US accounts for 35 or 65 percent of global cybercrime revenue, then the next question would be - what the hell are the various government agencies doing and how effective do they spend government/taxpayers' money? 4. From the same article: "However, a more basic answer is that a disproportionate number of Russians have worldclass math and computers skills, yet not the kind of jobs to use them legitimately. Although many firms in the industry are based in Russia, or else hire Russians, there is a pool of skilled but under-employed programmers who embrace the hacker world for fun, out of disillusion, or for profit." Anyone can show me a skilled but under-employed programmer in Russia? "Skilled but under-emplored programmer in Russia" is like Bigfoot [also known as sasquatch] - everyone heard about him/her, but noone saw. It is a legend... But of course there are russians, americans, germans, brits, and other nations, which do quite some harm. I just do not think there is a legitimate way to define the winner. Sorry for off-topic rambling, probably due to habit of enjoying fact-based debate, which resulted from my days in finance ;-))

tomelders 15y ago

I think you're playing the race card and ignoring the facts. Which is pretty lame. As a brit, I fully appreciate and understand why some people in the world hate all britons. We've done some bad things as a nation in recent years and people have a right to tar us all with the same brush. I understand why it would be unsafe for me to walk the streets of Kabul or Baghdad. If any brit has a problem with the way other people look at them, it's their job as a citizen in a democracy to affect the change they want to see in people's attitude towards this country and it's people. Except when it's the French. There's no pleasing those cheese eating surrender monkeys.

daemon13 15y ago
What exactly is lame? Pointing to possible misuse of race/nationality angle? I do not think so. Re > it's their job as a citizen in a democracy to affect the change they want to see in people's attitude towards this country and it's people. I believe that my job is to take care of my family and myself, because noone else, and no any government, will do this.
- regularfry 15y ago
  That's the difference between being a participatory citizen and an inhabitant.
tripzilch 15y ago
> As a brit, I fully appreciate and understand why some people in the world hate all britons. We've done some bad things as a nation in recent years and people have a right to tar us all with the same brush. Well that's cute, but I disagree. I'm Dutch, we've done some rather bad things in our colonial times, yet it is not okay for Indonesians or South Africans to hate all Dutch. Similarly it is NOT okay for Dutch people to hate all Germans just because they invaded us in 40-45 (WW2), because they took our bikes or because they tend to defeat us in international soccer games. > If any brit has a problem with the way other people look at them, it's their job as a citizen in a democracy to affect the change they want to see in people's attitude towards this country and it's people. I'd agree with you on that point if only you weren't highly overestimating the level of influence "any Brit" has on these matters, compared to how much "some Brits" have. Same for any democracy. Even those mythical ones that work. I'm responsible for my own actions, not for those of some bigshot that claims to represent "me" (one individual in a group of several million of that claim). If you feel that's not right or self-centred and I should do better, I'll try to take responsibility for my own actions extra hard, but I refuse to take on those of some idiot I hardly have any control over. Best I can do with my little vote is to not vote for Geert Wilders--but as you may or may not have noticed, it didn't help much. So am I to feel responsible for that turdmongler? Fuck no! Yet will I discreetly defecate in the kitchen or bathroom sink of anyone I encounter that appears to subscribe to Wilders' moronic ideas? You can count on it, and that's all the responsibility I will take. > Except when it's the French. There's no pleasing those cheese eating surrender monkeys. hur hur hur :-/ I'm all for a bit more humorous light-hearted poking on HN, but I'd rather do without crap like this. Made it real hard to read The Black Swan when Taleb continuously did the same, too.

ceejayoz 15y ago

Since when is "Russian" a race?

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
From the perspective of racism (which is the context here) it's perfectly valid. The UN's definition of racial descrimination: "the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."
ben0x539 15y ago
Russian refers to anything related to Russia, including: * Russians (russkiye), an ethnic group of the East Slavic peoples, primarily living in Russia and neighboring countries (where they are also known as Ruthenians or by other names) </wikipedia> Close enough?
scott_s 15y ago
I had a colleague who was from the Ukraine, and I once referred to him as Ukrainian, and he stiffly responded, "I am Russian." From that, I assumed that some people consider it an ethnic group independent of the nation.
- pavel_lishin 15y ago
  A lot of people from Eastern Europe are very sensitive about that sort of thing; Russia's domination of the USSR and various brutalities are still fresh in memory, and besides, referring to any Eastern European as a Russian is akin to calling someone from Guatemala as a Mexican. Some people are more sensitive about it than others. (I was born in Russia, and don't particularly care, but I'm aware of other people's sensitivities.) This happens in other parts of the world, too, of course. I once asked a girl in college if she was from India; she gave me a hateful death stare and coldly declared that she was from Bangladesh.

tptacek 15y ago

It was clumsily worded but I think we all know he didn't mean to imply that all of Russia was running botnets; he was alluding to Russian organized crime.

freehunter 15y ago

I work in information security, and I can give you a rough breakdown on botnet sites we've run into over the last year. (rough numbers) 25% have been Chinese (or linked to Chinese hackers, but using distributed hosting of hijacked servers around the world) 5% have been US-based. 10% have been Indian. 10% have been "other", including Canada/Mexico/Latin America, Africa, and Western Europe (like the German(?) Conficker worm) A full 50% have been linked to the Russian Federation (and other former Soviet countries). Why is this? Everyone has their theories, but mine is the combination of 1. Russia (and Eastern Europe) is a huge area. 2. Russian mafia really ramped up their cybercrime efforts after 1991 when the Soviet Union was retired. 3. Enforcement of cybercrime laws in Russia is lacking in comparison to Western nations, for various reasons. Many other countries, including the US, have their own hackers and cybercrime groups. China and Russia are much, much more effective, though, and it's fashionable to hate on "commies" in the Western media.

dennisgorelik 15y ago
You forgot to mention that the level of technical educational in Russia is quite high. Combined with mediocre quality of Russian business managers it produces oversupply of tech specialists. That in turn fuels rapid development of botnet ecosystem.
daemon13 15y ago
Another reason (4) is that quite a lot of people [majority] download audio/video content and install cracked software on their Windows! home PCs. I agree that external environment provided much more fertile ground for criminal activities [incl tech] in former USSR. The key words are "fashionable" and "Western media". We all can observe the influence of media on people's perceptions of events, countries, nationalities...

tomjen3 15y ago

To me it is clear that he meant Russian hackers (as it would have been if it had say Chinese) and I doubt anybody else is confused over this. Given that, writing hackers was redundant and should be dropped.

Angostura 15y ago

Fun though it always is to accuse people of racism. "The W32.Sality family of threats has been around for some time as the first versions surfaced in 2003 and may have originated in Russia" http://www.symantec.com/security_response/writeup.jsp?docid=2006-011714-3948-99 http://www.symantec.com/security_response/writeup.jsp?docid=...

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

gcb 15y ago

but i bet you never request your money back after an action movie depict a bad guy in the desert wearing a turban, right? yeah, i thought so.