3 ms·

in colombia, for $49, you can have a real doctor come to your home

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
esafak 3y ago
The average medical degree costs $220K and requires a decade of education. This has natural consequences. https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-medical-school https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-medical-school
- jimt1234 3y ago
  Any medical doctors out there? I've read that most doctors are $500K in the hole when they're all finished with school.
  - cwalv 3y ago
    Only if they're careless. Also, there are many options for internship and residency that qualify for PSLF, so in the end the total amount may not matter (to them), because it ends up forgiven after 8 +2 years in a non profit or govt hospital.
  - qudat 3y ago
    It’s the same answer to the question: Is it true most college graduates are $100k in the hole? It highly depends on the context of the individual, but OP is right: 4-year college then 4 years medical school, and then after that years of fellowship. The shocking part isn’t how much they pay, it’s also the opportunity cost of how long they make little to no money. When determining hourly wage, most physicians in training (e.g. residents, fellows) make minimum wage. It’s a decade of training or more where income is severely deferred. There isn’t even a guarantee of an astronomical salary because some specialties do not pay well.
  - stevekemp 3y ago
    My wife is a medical doctor, (although she got a degree in computer science before switching to medicine), but she's in Finland where education is free, so no debt was required for her. (Yes of course it isn't free, it's paid for by taxes. Taxes get quite high for high-earners such as doctors. So it all evens out.)
- Someone1234 3y ago
  And that $220K is just for medical school, a 4-year degree before entry could be an extra $100K on top (even assuming many state schools with inter-state students). For other things Community Collage may suffice, but Medical Schools are extremely competitive with spots being artificially restricted while the population continues to grow, so it is very unlikely that a Community Collage applicants even with good scores would be accepted. PS - Medical residence also often get paid a low enough salary and their loans kick in, that it can be a financial struggle without family support. There is a reason why many come from wealthy families.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    The $220k also does not account for the opportunity cost of income for a person smart enough to become a doctor in the first place. Had that person gone into software development or finance, they might have easily earned $400k+ over 4 years, and with a better quality of life to boot. And that does not account for the slavery during residency. I would estimate a doctor has to earn at least $1M if not $2M extra during their working years to offset giving up their alternative life in the prime of their life.
    - Auracle 3y ago
      I mean, they do. Being a doctor is the one profession where you're guaranteed to be rich, especially if you specialize at all. Even software development is no guarantee of riches - there are a lot of software developers making the same (or not much more than) accountants.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 3y ago
  I don't believe this. The astronomical prices aren't just covering the doctors education, it's the insurance companies and middle men.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    A big part of it is the liability insurance. Being able to sue and collect from healthcare providers for millions of dollars has a cost. One of the pernicious undercurrents affecting costs throughout all of US society, where I think the pendulum has swung way too far.
  - jayknight 3y ago
    Also, malpractice insurance is expensive, so patients are also paying for that...
corbezzoli 3y ago
In Yemen just $4. I don’t think it’s worth comparing countries.
femto 3y ago
In Australia it can cost $0, including home visits after hours. The actual cost is between 2% and 3.5% of your taxable income. A person on the average Australian salary of A$90,000/year would pay $A1800/year. For that you get doctors and hospitals (part of a national scheme called Medicare). An interesting comparison between countries is here: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy...
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  It can cost you $0. There is a difference in what you wrote.
  - vermilingua 3y ago
    That's not even what they said. The very next sentence detailed the personal cost of Medicare.
- vermilingua 3y ago
  That "can" is doing a lot of heavy lifting, less and less GPs are bulk-billed. We're still better out-of-sight than the US, but under the last govt we started sliding towards privatisation.
- s-lambert 3y ago
  Bulk billing for GP visits seems to be getting rarer though, I looked on Healthengine and there's way less GPs doing bulk billing in my capital city. My last GP visit was ~$50 after medicare.
- swarnie 3y ago
  It always amazes me how some places worked out socialised health care and other places really, really didn't. You would expect developed nations to all land within a few percentile of each other on major issues but for whatever reason the gap is enormous here.
m463 3y ago
These kinds of comparisons are confusing. A friend had a grandfather in mexico that had prostate problems. He was 85+ years old, and the doctor convinced him to have surgery. He had some weird problems with the anesthesia, but they bundled him in a car and sent him home. to die. The doctor was still paid up front. In the US, it would be very hard to convince a doctor to do surgery on an 80+ year old patient. They would have watched over him until he was completely stable. All kinds of other differences. Also I think in other countries you can't get some operations at any cost, like heart bypass surgeries, while in the US you can pay for it if you have the money. I think there needs to be more nuanced comparisons.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > In the US, it would be very hard to convince a doctor to do surgery on an 80+ year old patient. Not sure about the US, but this doen't seem to be true in the UK. "The number of people aged 75 years or more undergoing surgery increased from 544,998 (14·9 per cent of that age group) in 1999 to 1,012,517 (22·9 per cent) in 2015. By 2030, it is estimated that one-fifth of the 75 years and older age category will undergo surgery each year (1·49 (95 per cent c.i. 1·43 to 1·55) million people), at a cost of €3·2 (3·1 to 3·5) billion." From https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31115918/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31115918/

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

The average medical degree costs $220K and requires a decade of education. This has natural consequences. https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-medical-school https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-medical-school

jimt1234 3y ago
Any medical doctors out there? I've read that most doctors are $500K in the hole when they're all finished with school.
- cwalv 3y ago
  Only if they're careless. Also, there are many options for internship and residency that qualify for PSLF, so in the end the total amount may not matter (to them), because it ends up forgiven after 8 +2 years in a non profit or govt hospital.
- qudat 3y ago
  It’s the same answer to the question: Is it true most college graduates are $100k in the hole? It highly depends on the context of the individual, but OP is right: 4-year college then 4 years medical school, and then after that years of fellowship. The shocking part isn’t how much they pay, it’s also the opportunity cost of how long they make little to no money. When determining hourly wage, most physicians in training (e.g. residents, fellows) make minimum wage. It’s a decade of training or more where income is severely deferred. There isn’t even a guarantee of an astronomical salary because some specialties do not pay well.
- stevekemp 3y ago
  My wife is a medical doctor, (although she got a degree in computer science before switching to medicine), but she's in Finland where education is free, so no debt was required for her. (Yes of course it isn't free, it's paid for by taxes. Taxes get quite high for high-earners such as doctors. So it all evens out.)
Someone1234 3y ago
And that $220K is just for medical school, a 4-year degree before entry could be an extra $100K on top (even assuming many state schools with inter-state students). For other things Community Collage may suffice, but Medical Schools are extremely competitive with spots being artificially restricted while the population continues to grow, so it is very unlikely that a Community Collage applicants even with good scores would be accepted. PS - Medical residence also often get paid a low enough salary and their loans kick in, that it can be a financial struggle without family support. There is a reason why many come from wealthy families.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  The $220k also does not account for the opportunity cost of income for a person smart enough to become a doctor in the first place. Had that person gone into software development or finance, they might have easily earned $400k+ over 4 years, and with a better quality of life to boot. And that does not account for the slavery during residency. I would estimate a doctor has to earn at least $1M if not $2M extra during their working years to offset giving up their alternative life in the prime of their life.
  - Auracle 3y ago
    I mean, they do. Being a doctor is the one profession where you're guaranteed to be rich, especially if you specialize at all. Even software development is no guarantee of riches - there are a lot of software developers making the same (or not much more than) accountants.
8n4vidtmkvmk 3y ago
I don't believe this. The astronomical prices aren't just covering the doctors education, it's the insurance companies and middle men.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  A big part of it is the liability insurance. Being able to sue and collect from healthcare providers for millions of dollars has a cost. One of the pernicious undercurrents affecting costs throughout all of US society, where I think the pendulum has swung way too far.
- jayknight 3y ago
  Also, malpractice insurance is expensive, so patients are also paying for that...

corbezzoli 3y ago

In Yemen just $4. I don’t think it’s worth comparing countries.

femto 3y ago

In Australia it can cost $0, including home visits after hours. The actual cost is between 2% and 3.5% of your taxable income. A person on the average Australian salary of A$90,000/year would pay $A1800/year. For that you get doctors and hospitals (part of a national scheme called Medicare). An interesting comparison between countries is here: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy...

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
It can cost you $0. There is a difference in what you wrote.
- vermilingua 3y ago
  That's not even what they said. The very next sentence detailed the personal cost of Medicare.
vermilingua 3y ago
That "can" is doing a lot of heavy lifting, less and less GPs are bulk-billed. We're still better out-of-sight than the US, but under the last govt we started sliding towards privatisation.
s-lambert 3y ago
Bulk billing for GP visits seems to be getting rarer though, I looked on Healthengine and there's way less GPs doing bulk billing in my capital city. My last GP visit was ~$50 after medicare.
swarnie 3y ago
It always amazes me how some places worked out socialised health care and other places really, really didn't. You would expect developed nations to all land within a few percentile of each other on major issues but for whatever reason the gap is enormous here.

m463 3y ago

These kinds of comparisons are confusing. A friend had a grandfather in mexico that had prostate problems. He was 85+ years old, and the doctor convinced him to have surgery. He had some weird problems with the anesthesia, but they bundled him in a car and sent him home. to die. The doctor was still paid up front. In the US, it would be very hard to convince a doctor to do surgery on an 80+ year old patient. They would have watched over him until he was completely stable. All kinds of other differences. Also I think in other countries you can't get some operations at any cost, like heart bypass surgeries, while in the US you can pay for it if you have the money. I think there needs to be more nuanced comparisons.

lostlogin 3y ago
> In the US, it would be very hard to convince a doctor to do surgery on an 80+ year old patient. Not sure about the US, but this doen't seem to be true in the UK. "The number of people aged 75 years or more undergoing surgery increased from 544,998 (14·9 per cent of that age group) in 1999 to 1,012,517 (22·9 per cent) in 2015. By 2030, it is estimated that one-fifth of the 75 years and older age category will undergo surgery each year (1·49 (95 per cent c.i. 1·43 to 1·55) million people), at a cost of €3·2 (3·1 to 3·5) billion." From https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31115918/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31115918/