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Vegas machines are calibrated with a certain win rate. The author surmises that this game has something more like a loss rate at pre-determined points. Would s

Vegas machines are calibrated with a certain win rate. The author surmises that this game has something more like a loss rate at pre-determined points. Would such a machine be legal in the regulated real-world? Or only in the wild-west of online casinos?

TylerE 3y ago
Absolutely not. Nevada requires two things that are very important: 1. Anything that appears to be a representation of a physical object or device must behave exactly as the thing it represents. So, like in this case of the article if you have 4 cards, one of which has a rock behind them, each must have exactly a 1/4 chance of containing the rock. Wether this is pre-determined or after the choice is made is irrelevant if the odds are fair. 2. Any manufacturer selling games to Nevada must abide by the Nevada rules for any machine they sell anywhere in the world, so no switching a machine out for something that looks the same but operates differently. It should also be noted that there is a seperate class of machines called "pull tabs" that are legal in some jurisdictions (often found in places like gas stations and bars) that often present as a slot machine or video poker, but actually work more like a lottery scratch off - the result is 100% pre-determined, and any agency the player appears to be given is an illusion. So, like, if you hit the jackpot on a video poker (like) machine, and get given a royal flush on the initial deal, even if you discard all 5 cards you'll get another royal flush on the draw.
- Eji1700 3y ago
  Vegas really is very well regulated. There are some extremely ugly sides to gambling, but if you're going to have it, vegas is a pretty good starting point for how to try and keep things under control. There's no casino in town that will "look the other way" for a few 20 year olds who want to gamble, because doing it once could lose that operation it's gaming license. There's no casino that's going to on purpose risk going above the 25% max hold, because again, you could lose the ENTIRE OPERATION. The rules are rock solid (sorta....simplifying) and heavily enforced, and while at the end of the day all the machines give worse odds than the ATM, there's caps on what you can and can't do. Somewhat ironically, I'm not sure if it's changed, but if a slot machine shows you a "pick 1 of 3" choice, it's never a real choice. The decision was made before you picked. Every "pull" of the lever determines your payout basically instantly, ALL the shenanigans after that (including free auto play games i believe) are just placebo/different ways of doing a jackpot.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    There's absolutely no reason for a casino to cheat - they don't need to, they already have the house edge.
    - resolutebat 3y ago
      The entire reason Nevada regulations exist and are strictly enforced is that the casinos did, in fact, cheat.
      - Eji1700 3y ago
        Ehh...kinda? For the most part, it's because they were cheating the government and skimming funds for illegal businesses and laundering money and not paying taxes on it, not cheating the players (sorta kinda....again summarizing a lot.)
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      That's like: "There's absolutely no reason for the executive to embezzle - they don't need to, they already have the cushy job." Cheating means greater profit, and (unless caught) more-reliable profit.
      - TylerE 3y ago
        Except they're competing. If players think they win more at Casino B than Casino A, Casino A makes less, not more.
        mark_up 3y ago
        [dead]
        gpxyz 3y ago
        Unless the same company[0] owns both Casino A and Casino B [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vici_Properties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vici_Properties
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
narag 3y ago
Would such a machine be legal in the regulated real-world? I live in Spain. I dislike slot machines and, a long time ago, while a friend was wasting his money, I made a quick calculation. Given the number of options and the prizes, if you assumed randomness, one in three coins he inserted would have produced a prize, even the smallest, that was reimbursement. But that wasn't what happened. It was more of a prize for one in seven coins or maybe one in ten. My friend knew more than enough maths to understand what I told him, but he said he knew, right? (he didn't) and that the question was to wait for the moment the machine was loaded. I realized it was just an addiction. And yes, at least then and there it was legal.
- aezart 3y ago
  > the question was to wait for the moment the machine was loaded "Stacker" arcade machines work like that. It's always possible to win the minor prize (a little plastic toy generally), but if you refuse the small prize and keep playing for a major prize (game consoles, gift cards, etc.), it's impossible to win until the machine has banked enough money for the operator to make a profit.
julianwachholz 3y ago
It's not a casino or falls under gambling laws I assume because there is absolutely nothing to be won.

TylerE 3y ago

Absolutely not. Nevada requires two things that are very important: 1. Anything that appears to be a representation of a physical object or device must behave exactly as the thing it represents. So, like in this case of the article if you have 4 cards, one of which has a rock behind them, each must have exactly a 1/4 chance of containing the rock. Wether this is pre-determined or after the choice is made is irrelevant if the odds are fair. 2. Any manufacturer selling games to Nevada must abide by the Nevada rules for any machine they sell anywhere in the world, so no switching a machine out for something that looks the same but operates differently. It should also be noted that there is a seperate class of machines called "pull tabs" that are legal in some jurisdictions (often found in places like gas stations and bars) that often present as a slot machine or video poker, but actually work more like a lottery scratch off - the result is 100% pre-determined, and any agency the player appears to be given is an illusion. So, like, if you hit the jackpot on a video poker (like) machine, and get given a royal flush on the initial deal, even if you discard all 5 cards you'll get another royal flush on the draw.

Eji1700 3y ago
Vegas really is very well regulated. There are some extremely ugly sides to gambling, but if you're going to have it, vegas is a pretty good starting point for how to try and keep things under control. There's no casino in town that will "look the other way" for a few 20 year olds who want to gamble, because doing it once could lose that operation it's gaming license. There's no casino that's going to on purpose risk going above the 25% max hold, because again, you could lose the ENTIRE OPERATION. The rules are rock solid (sorta....simplifying) and heavily enforced, and while at the end of the day all the machines give worse odds than the ATM, there's caps on what you can and can't do. Somewhat ironically, I'm not sure if it's changed, but if a slot machine shows you a "pick 1 of 3" choice, it's never a real choice. The decision was made before you picked. Every "pull" of the lever determines your payout basically instantly, ALL the shenanigans after that (including free auto play games i believe) are just placebo/different ways of doing a jackpot.
- TylerE 3y ago
  There's absolutely no reason for a casino to cheat - they don't need to, they already have the house edge.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    The entire reason Nevada regulations exist and are strictly enforced is that the casinos did, in fact, cheat.
    - Eji1700 3y ago
      Ehh...kinda? For the most part, it's because they were cheating the government and skimming funds for illegal businesses and laundering money and not paying taxes on it, not cheating the players (sorta kinda....again summarizing a lot.)
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    That's like: "There's absolutely no reason for the executive to embezzle - they don't need to, they already have the cushy job." Cheating means greater profit, and (unless caught) more-reliable profit.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      Except they're competing. If players think they win more at Casino B than Casino A, Casino A makes less, not more.
      - mark_up 3y ago
        [dead]
      - gpxyz 3y ago
        Unless the same company[0] owns both Casino A and Casino B [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vici_Properties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vici_Properties

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

narag 3y ago

Would such a machine be legal in the regulated real-world? I live in Spain. I dislike slot machines and, a long time ago, while a friend was wasting his money, I made a quick calculation. Given the number of options and the prizes, if you assumed randomness, one in three coins he inserted would have produced a prize, even the smallest, that was reimbursement. But that wasn't what happened. It was more of a prize for one in seven coins or maybe one in ten. My friend knew more than enough maths to understand what I told him, but he said he knew, right? (he didn't) and that the question was to wait for the moment the machine was loaded. I realized it was just an addiction. And yes, at least then and there it was legal.

aezart 3y ago
> the question was to wait for the moment the machine was loaded "Stacker" arcade machines work like that. It's always possible to win the minor prize (a little plastic toy generally), but if you refuse the small prize and keep playing for a major prize (game consoles, gift cards, etc.), it's impossible to win until the machine has banked enough money for the operator to make a profit.

julianwachholz 3y ago

It's not a casino or falls under gambling laws I assume because there is absolutely nothing to be won.