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The biggest thing that kills indie developers is taking a waterfall approach to game design. "I want to make an XYZ genre game with mechanic ABC and a story abo

The biggest thing that kills indie developers is taking a waterfall approach to game design. "I want to make an XYZ genre game with mechanic ABC and a story about 123." There is absolutely no way to know if that combination of designs will be fun at all, and it won't be until they're too far in development before they realise it's irredeemable. Best advice I ever got on this subject: identify what you want the most impactful element of the game to be. Is it a unique combat mechanic? Is it a compelling story? Make that first and only that. If it's impactful, take it further and build more around it. Show it to people as early and regularly as possible. If people tell you it's boring, they're probably right, but don't listen to them if they tell you how to fix it. If you can't fix it, toss it and move on. You cannot afford to find out if your game is fun 2 years into development. Also, most of your ideas are probably terrible and you won't start having better ideas until you make and finish a number of projects.

deleted 3y ago
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aikinai 3y ago
This is the secret to Nintendo’s success. Despite being a very traditional Japanese company, iterative, agile development is in their DNA. They experiment with a lot of different game mechanics that might be fun, test them early on other people in the office, and then when they find a core mechanic that seems like a game can be built around it, they start fleshing that out, add other mechanics that work as sweeteners, and build up iteratively. Only when they have a good picture of the game do they start piecing together some sort of story or setting that makes the mechanic make sense. Even the IP might be swapped entirely to something that better jives with the mechanic, or just to stick on a brand that will help it sell. That’s why their games stay fresh and fun and they can maintain their innovative edge.
- kqr 3y ago
  > Despite being a very traditional Japanese company Huh, isn't the idea of agile development to lift lean from manufacturing to development? And lean is very Japanese, at least in some sense!
  - aikinai 3y ago
    No, the philosophies are completely orthogonal. “Lean” might be a shared buzzword, but the meaning is completely different in manufacturing vs software. Toyota Production System, just-in-time manufacturing, and such are about making a running process more efficient and lean over time, but agile software is about being flexible as you develop something brand new, and Japanese companies are still terrible at it. They love waterfall, huge spreadsheets, and explicitly defining absolutely everything up front, often years in advance. None of this is incompatible with the other version of “lean” in manufacturing. * Many (most?) say they do “agile” software now, but that just means breaking the massive waterfall spreadsheet into predefined two week “sprints.”
doctorpangloss 3y ago
> There is absolutely no way to know if that combination of designs will be fun at all Another perspective is, you shouldn't be doing this if you can't tell if something is fun without "testing" it. > Also, most of your ideas are probably terrible Without fail, all the people I know who are the best at this keep having one good idea after another. They absolutely do not run out of really good ideas that sound and play obviously fun. They lack free audiences and money. This is basically the difference between making video games and doing product management.
- meheleventyone 3y ago
  It’s both, you need to have developed good taste and you should take an iterative approach to development.
- hresvelgr 3y ago
  > Another perspective is, you shouldn't be doing this if you can't tell if something is fun without "testing" it. Trust me, you have absolutely no way of knowing until you playtest, seriously. You could copy all the game mechanics of a popular game, down to the engine and the exact magic numbers and functions that made it, and it can still suck. Just look at most AAA open-world action RPGs released in the last 5 years. > Without fail, all the people I know who are the best at this keep having one good idea after another. They absolutely do not run out of really good ideas that sound and play obviously fun. I'm sure the people you know do have "really good ideas" but they are nothing more than lottery tickets until prototyped. You don't need money to pull together a shitty prototype to prove some aspect of your game works, and there are numerous meetups everywhere for indie devs to show off their games. I'm gonna make a wild assumption that these people you know haven't prototyped any of these "obviously fun" ideas.
  - doctorpangloss 3y ago
    > Trust me, you have absolutely no way of knowing until you playtest, seriously. [Conflates a bunch of things under the word "suck."] Being a product manager employee and a Lead Game Designer employee are both very valid and interesting roles.

deleted 3y ago

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aikinai 3y ago

This is the secret to Nintendo’s success. Despite being a very traditional Japanese company, iterative, agile development is in their DNA. They experiment with a lot of different game mechanics that might be fun, test them early on other people in the office, and then when they find a core mechanic that seems like a game can be built around it, they start fleshing that out, add other mechanics that work as sweeteners, and build up iteratively. Only when they have a good picture of the game do they start piecing together some sort of story or setting that makes the mechanic make sense. Even the IP might be swapped entirely to something that better jives with the mechanic, or just to stick on a brand that will help it sell. That’s why their games stay fresh and fun and they can maintain their innovative edge.

kqr 3y ago
> Despite being a very traditional Japanese company Huh, isn't the idea of agile development to lift lean from manufacturing to development? And lean is very Japanese, at least in some sense!
- aikinai 3y ago
  No, the philosophies are completely orthogonal. “Lean” might be a shared buzzword, but the meaning is completely different in manufacturing vs software. Toyota Production System, just-in-time manufacturing, and such are about making a running process more efficient and lean over time, but agile software is about being flexible as you develop something brand new, and Japanese companies are still terrible at it. They love waterfall, huge spreadsheets, and explicitly defining absolutely everything up front, often years in advance. None of this is incompatible with the other version of “lean” in manufacturing. * Many (most?) say they do “agile” software now, but that just means breaking the massive waterfall spreadsheet into predefined two week “sprints.”

doctorpangloss 3y ago

> There is absolutely no way to know if that combination of designs will be fun at all Another perspective is, you shouldn't be doing this if you can't tell if something is fun without "testing" it. > Also, most of your ideas are probably terrible Without fail, all the people I know who are the best at this keep having one good idea after another. They absolutely do not run out of really good ideas that sound and play obviously fun. They lack free audiences and money. This is basically the difference between making video games and doing product management.

meheleventyone 3y ago
It’s both, you need to have developed good taste and you should take an iterative approach to development.
hresvelgr 3y ago
> Another perspective is, you shouldn't be doing this if you can't tell if something is fun without "testing" it. Trust me, you have absolutely no way of knowing until you playtest, seriously. You could copy all the game mechanics of a popular game, down to the engine and the exact magic numbers and functions that made it, and it can still suck. Just look at most AAA open-world action RPGs released in the last 5 years. > Without fail, all the people I know who are the best at this keep having one good idea after another. They absolutely do not run out of really good ideas that sound and play obviously fun. I'm sure the people you know do have "really good ideas" but they are nothing more than lottery tickets until prototyped. You don't need money to pull together a shitty prototype to prove some aspect of your game works, and there are numerous meetups everywhere for indie devs to show off their games. I'm gonna make a wild assumption that these people you know haven't prototyped any of these "obviously fun" ideas.
- doctorpangloss 3y ago
  > Trust me, you have absolutely no way of knowing until you playtest, seriously. [Conflates a bunch of things under the word "suck."] Being a product manager employee and a Lead Game Designer employee are both very valid and interesting roles.