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for everybody still on physical medium (be it paper, board, whatever), did you try to leverage digital tools thinking it would allow wider expressiveness, faste

for everybody still on physical medium (be it paper, board, whatever), did you try to leverage digital tools thinking it would allow wider expressiveness, faster iteration, more precision and yet came back to paper ? if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working)

gspencley 3y ago
> if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working) There is some of that. But pen and paper has other benefits that are hard to match: - Pen & Paper works even if there is a service disruption / outage - Pen & Paper works even if the device's battery dies or the power goes out - Pen & Paper is fast. I don't need to unlock the screen, I don't experience progressive sluggishness due to memory leaks, analytics / telemetry running in the background or feature/library bloat - Pen & Paper doesn't send everything that I'm writing to some remote server for analytics purposes - Pen & Paper has never crashed on me - I get to decide if and when I want the newest version of pen/paper. I don't ever reach for Pen & Paper to discover that some product owner has pushed a change on me without my opt-in / consent. - Pen & Paper works in virtually every envrionment, regardless of whether I'm wearing gloves or my hands are cold (though admittedly cold hands can slow down the writing process, but much less so than trying to use a touch-screen or keyboard). - Pen & Paper is often easier to read (assuming the hand-writing is legible, which is admittedly hit or miss, but it causes much less eye fatigue than staring at a screen). - Pen & Paper doesn't distract me with spell/grammar checks that I don't need in the moment. Disabling / re-enabling these features is time consuming. - Pen & Paper is a technology that has truly stood the test of time. The fact that it continues to persist into the digital age is very telling. Sometimes "simple & works" beats new and featureful but complicated.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  It's ruling our lives There is no hope Thought I'd drop a line The weather here is fine But day and night it blares Commanding through loudspeakers: "Metal is tough, metal will sheen Metal won't rust when oiled and cleaned Metal is tough, metal will sheen Metal will rule in my master scheme" -- Siouxsie and the Banshees, "Mittageisen"
- jjav 3y ago
  To add: The manufacturer of the pen or paper can't remove your access to using them because they decided to chance licensing. Said manufacturers can't force push an update that suddenly makes your old writing unusable.
ska 3y ago
For me it's just that it works much better for some tasks.
maxxk 3y ago
Two years ago I moved back to paper for my productivity and notetaking after about 7 years going fully digital. There are a lot of advantages for me. Some of those may apply to others: - Tactile feeling and aesthetics. My writing is not very beautiful, but a stack of papers filled with my notes and diagrams is very inspiring. - Paper is an offline, distraction-free medium. I think better with paper. Maybe it is a cultural habit. - Paper won't disappear one day due to bad battery, untested OS update, malware, EOL for cloud service etc. Losing a couple of sheets of paper is easier than electronic device. But when speaking about losing a bulk of notes, it is much easier to lose it electronically than physically. - Paper is forgiving. I can draw quick-and-dirty diagram in a minute and move on. It is hard to draw quick-and-dirty diagram on a computer. I will spend at least a couple of minutes deciding which app will be more convenient to draw this diagram, about ten minutes fighting an app, and up to an hour fighting my perfectionism, placing all shapes in proper places in grid. - A sheet of paper is bounded, which helps with internal distractions. If I need to make a TODO list, I will take a smaller sheet, and fit all important things there. - When you have large desk, you can spread a lot of paper sheets on it and see it all at the same time. Rearrange it, put it in stacks by some criterion, and so on. And neither scrolling nor list of thumbnails work as good as flipping through a paper book. Disadvantages are: - Lack of search function. I didn't try Apple Notes document scanning recently, maybe some kind of handwriting recognition is there and it will be enough to just take photos of all my notes. - Portability: I need a desk with enough free space for both laptop and papers (so, mostly in terms of depth - probably a problem for open space offices). I have some hopes for Apple Vision Pro (maybe in V2 or V3). I think it has a potential to bring some of these advantages to digital world :)
mikestew 3y ago
for everybody still on physical medium (be it paper, board, whatever), did you try to leverage digital tools thinking it would allow wider expressiveness, faster iteration, more precision and yet came back to paper ? Dude, I have been trying digital tools since I thought that one of these things[0] would replace my Franklin Planner. I'll save you a click, that was over 30 years ago. Yeah, I use the hell out of some digital tools ("hey dingus, add bananas to the <shared family> grocery list"). But the first thing I grab in the morning is a paper notebook[1] to plan my day, using the "bullet journal" style that I've settled on these past few years. Every digital tool I've tried just turns into an abyss-like dumping ground where tasks go to die (and never get completed). I don't know why, maybe it's the lack of spatiality with digital tools. Or an abstraction too far, I don't know. I just know that I'd been pounding that square peg into that round hole for decades, until I finally just gave in went back to paper. Bullet journal style, nice notebook, and a nice fountain pen works for me for most of my organization, and it's probably what I'll stick with. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Wizard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Wizard [1] https://www.leuchtturm1917.us https://www.leuchtturm1917.us
- bluGill 3y ago
  Digital is worse than paper because with paper you need to copy and clean up your todo list often (typically daily, though other things can work) That means every item you didn't do is reviewed to see if you still care enough to put in the effort to copy it. digital systems make it easy to keep a long list of things you want to do eventually, but in reality never will, and soon you can't find in the long list things you really must do now. If you use your digital todo list for things that you must do by a deadline it works well. Digital tools are good for the yearly tasks list "buy birthday card for my sister" - knowing that you can then decide when it pops up if you will buy one or not. Digital tools make it too easy to put things in like "investigate interesting widget you just heard about when money isn't so tight", and then they clutter the list with things odds are you won't do. If you have a digital todo list you are allowed to have 2 things that you must do today, and 10 things you must do sometime in the next week (numbers are debatable). If you have more than that something must go. If it isn't in the next two weeks put it on the calendar not the todo list so it doesn't pop up until you need to do it. (todo lists that integrate with your calendar are good at this!) Actually I've found my todo list works best if instead I use my calendar to block of time - I have a short presentation to give in a couple weeks so I have one hour a week to work on it. I have dysgraphia which means I cannot read my own writing. As such digital solutions have a higher interest for me. However there are things people using paper can do that I do not have a good replacement for. Things are working for me, but writing is a much better system if only I could use it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
agumonkey 3y ago
Thanks to everyone who answered, it's really really great reading your stories and ideas.

for everybody still on physical medium (be it paper, board, whatever), did you try to leverage digital tools thinking it would allow wider expressiveness, faster iteration, more precision and yet came back to paper ? if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working)

gspencley 3y ago

> if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working) There is some of that. But pen and paper has other benefits that are hard to match: - Pen & Paper works even if there is a service disruption / outage - Pen & Paper works even if the device's battery dies or the power goes out - Pen & Paper is fast. I don't need to unlock the screen, I don't experience progressive sluggishness due to memory leaks, analytics / telemetry running in the background or feature/library bloat - Pen & Paper doesn't send everything that I'm writing to some remote server for analytics purposes - Pen & Paper has never crashed on me - I get to decide if and when I want the newest version of pen/paper. I don't ever reach for Pen & Paper to discover that some product owner has pushed a change on me without my opt-in / consent. - Pen & Paper works in virtually every envrionment, regardless of whether I'm wearing gloves or my hands are cold (though admittedly cold hands can slow down the writing process, but much less so than trying to use a touch-screen or keyboard). - Pen & Paper is often easier to read (assuming the hand-writing is legible, which is admittedly hit or miss, but it causes much less eye fatigue than staring at a screen). - Pen & Paper doesn't distract me with spell/grammar checks that I don't need in the moment. Disabling / re-enabling these features is time consuming. - Pen & Paper is a technology that has truly stood the test of time. The fact that it continues to persist into the digital age is very telling. Sometimes "simple & works" beats new and featureful but complicated.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
It's ruling our lives There is no hope Thought I'd drop a line The weather here is fine But day and night it blares Commanding through loudspeakers: "Metal is tough, metal will sheen Metal won't rust when oiled and cleaned Metal is tough, metal will sheen Metal will rule in my master scheme" -- Siouxsie and the Banshees, "Mittageisen"
jjav 3y ago
To add: The manufacturer of the pen or paper can't remove your access to using them because they decided to chance licensing. Said manufacturers can't force push an update that suddenly makes your old writing unusable.

ska 3y ago

For me it's just that it works much better for some tasks.

maxxk 3y ago

Two years ago I moved back to paper for my productivity and notetaking after about 7 years going fully digital. There are a lot of advantages for me. Some of those may apply to others: - Tactile feeling and aesthetics. My writing is not very beautiful, but a stack of papers filled with my notes and diagrams is very inspiring. - Paper is an offline, distraction-free medium. I think better with paper. Maybe it is a cultural habit. - Paper won't disappear one day due to bad battery, untested OS update, malware, EOL for cloud service etc. Losing a couple of sheets of paper is easier than electronic device. But when speaking about losing a bulk of notes, it is much easier to lose it electronically than physically. - Paper is forgiving. I can draw quick-and-dirty diagram in a minute and move on. It is hard to draw quick-and-dirty diagram on a computer. I will spend at least a couple of minutes deciding which app will be more convenient to draw this diagram, about ten minutes fighting an app, and up to an hour fighting my perfectionism, placing all shapes in proper places in grid. - A sheet of paper is bounded, which helps with internal distractions. If I need to make a TODO list, I will take a smaller sheet, and fit all important things there. - When you have large desk, you can spread a lot of paper sheets on it and see it all at the same time. Rearrange it, put it in stacks by some criterion, and so on. And neither scrolling nor list of thumbnails work as good as flipping through a paper book. Disadvantages are: - Lack of search function. I didn't try Apple Notes document scanning recently, maybe some kind of handwriting recognition is there and it will be enough to just take photos of all my notes. - Portability: I need a desk with enough free space for both laptop and papers (so, mostly in terms of depth - probably a problem for open space offices). I have some hopes for Apple Vision Pro (maybe in V2 or V3). I think it has a potential to bring some of these advantages to digital world :)

mikestew 3y ago

for everybody still on physical medium (be it paper, board, whatever), did you try to leverage digital tools thinking it would allow wider expressiveness, faster iteration, more precision and yet came back to paper ? Dude, I have been trying digital tools since I thought that one of these things[0] would replace my Franklin Planner. I'll save you a click, that was over 30 years ago. Yeah, I use the hell out of some digital tools ("hey dingus, add bananas to the <shared family> grocery list"). But the first thing I grab in the morning is a paper notebook[1] to plan my day, using the "bullet journal" style that I've settled on these past few years. Every digital tool I've tried just turns into an abyss-like dumping ground where tasks go to die (and never get completed). I don't know why, maybe it's the lack of spatiality with digital tools. Or an abstraction too far, I don't know. I just know that I'd been pounding that square peg into that round hole for decades, until I finally just gave in went back to paper. Bullet journal style, nice notebook, and a nice fountain pen works for me for most of my organization, and it's probably what I'll stick with. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Wizard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Wizard [1] https://www.leuchtturm1917.us https://www.leuchtturm1917.us

bluGill 3y ago
Digital is worse than paper because with paper you need to copy and clean up your todo list often (typically daily, though other things can work) That means every item you didn't do is reviewed to see if you still care enough to put in the effort to copy it. digital systems make it easy to keep a long list of things you want to do eventually, but in reality never will, and soon you can't find in the long list things you really must do now. If you use your digital todo list for things that you must do by a deadline it works well. Digital tools are good for the yearly tasks list "buy birthday card for my sister" - knowing that you can then decide when it pops up if you will buy one or not. Digital tools make it too easy to put things in like "investigate interesting widget you just heard about when money isn't so tight", and then they clutter the list with things odds are you won't do. If you have a digital todo list you are allowed to have 2 things that you must do today, and 10 things you must do sometime in the next week (numbers are debatable). If you have more than that something must go. If it isn't in the next two weeks put it on the calendar not the todo list so it doesn't pop up until you need to do it. (todo lists that integrate with your calendar are good at this!) Actually I've found my todo list works best if instead I use my calendar to block of time - I have a short presentation to give in a couple weeks so I have one hour a week to work on it. I have dysgraphia which means I cannot read my own writing. As such digital solutions have a higher interest for me. However there are things people using paper can do that I do not have a good replacement for. Things are working for me, but writing is a much better system if only I could use it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

agumonkey 3y ago

Thanks to everyone who answered, it's really really great reading your stories and ideas.