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> Paper, it seems, still rules the waves. You'd be crazy to get rid of paper charts on a boat, for the same reason any hiker is instructed to carry a paper map

> Paper, it seems, still rules the waves. You'd be crazy to get rid of paper charts on a boat, for the same reason any hiker is instructed to carry a paper map, and the smart ones actually do it. Yeah, the primary system will be GPS, but that system requires a lot of things to be functioning which may not always be functioning. You need a backup, and paper is perfect for that.

ghaff 3y ago
There are a ton of situations where it’s really a good idea to have a paper backup. Traveling, especially internationally, and you lose your phone in a taxi? Do you know your itinerary and where you’re staying? I’m not religious about it for simple trips where I know where I’m staying but I definitely make a printout for anything more complex—but I bet a lot of people don’t.
- davchana 3y ago
  I was on my first travel trip to Rome, and dropped my phone & damaged it at Amsterdam airport while trying to charge it. All maps, instructions, how to reach hotel, public transportation help, everything was in that phone. God helped & Rome airport had public computer terminals at airport. Found some scrap paper, & drew the general directions to hotel.
  - dboreham 3y ago
    I always carry my (N-1)th phone in my suitcase in case of such an event.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      Or for those with true tourist savvy, carry (N-1)th phone as primary in pickpocket public, and your current, flashy, expensive device is your backup instead.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        I’m not sure I’m quite that paranoid but I can’t really argue. And already pretty much do it with the computer I travel with—my 8 year old laptop. But eg N-1 probably doesn’t have as good a camera if you do every 3-4 years like me. With some extended personal travel coming up I’ll definitely think about my strategies.
    - davchana 3y ago
      The onwards, I started carrying a second phone.
- deafpolygon 3y ago
  I always have paper printout, even if I'm using my smartphone as the main ticketing device. Phones break, cell service isn't 100%, battery could die.
cracrecry 3y ago
>any hiker is instructed to carry a paper map The best maps are cloth maps. They are amazing as you can bend those, put over a stone, rain could go over.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Tyvek works fine. But really anything is better than nothing if you know how to use it.
brightsize 3y ago
Re: hiking, your comment reminded me of this recent write-up in the Seattle Times. It's hard to imagine serious hikers hitting the trail in the PNW without at least one person in the party carrying the relevant Green Trails paper maps, but I suppose they exist. https://www.seattletimes.com/life/outdoors/seattle-mapmaker-celebrates-50-years-of-guiding-hikers/ https://www.seattletimes.com/life/outdoors/seattle-mapmaker-... “Your devices aren’t big enough to show you the context at any level of detail that from our point of view would be useful,” he said, citing the possibility of needing to find an escape route in a wildfire. “If you unfold a map, you can see where you are and get a better handle on where you can go.” Coburn’s stewardship also resulted in the durable quality of today’s Green Trails maps. Made of Polyart tearproof synthetic paper, with special ink to shade topographic relief, and printed at Capitol City Press in Olympia, these maps have a clear selling point: waterproof, solar-powered, no batteries required."
- bhandziuk 3y ago
  I got lazy about this when moving from Washington to Colorado. Many hours in Colorado are so exposed I can still basically see the car some 8 miles later and 6000 ft up.
dogman144 3y ago
Ya, lunacy to do any outdoors without paper map + compass beyond the there-and-back loop where you can still hear car traffic.
- eternityforest 3y ago
  Does anyone know how to use a map and compass? I don't think I could outside a city. Everyone talks about the physical maps, but the bigger issue is without the skill the map is useless, and if you've always had a phone, the true terror of being lost and alone might not enter your mind till you're there. I guess I'm lucky that I often forget my charger and wind up having no clue where I am and trying to get back by asking directions, I'm well aware of how awful it is to have no idea where you are or what direction you're facing or if you're in the right city!
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Sure. I usually just use GPS but I absolutely know how to read a trail map. Orienteering off-trail is a bit rusty but I can absolutely deal with most map and compass navigation.
  - dogman144 3y ago
    I do not know anyone serious about the outdoors that does not know how to use a map and compass. Extremely straightforward to learn. I hike with a Garmin foretrex, I route plan and land nav when out there with a map. The garmin sanity checks me once in a while. There is a significant amount of bad stuff that can go very wrong, to start, just bc your Garmin’s altimeter and calibration is bugging out while you mindlessly follow. And when you’re in areas where this matters (ie “can I hear street noise” judgment”), the out of the box technical land navigation tools tend to not work out of the box. I’ve had an updated and calibrated Garmin put me 5-600m away from where I definitely was via map, compass triangulation and then sanity check with a iPhone b/c the difference really surprised me. 5-600m difference is quite consequential. Mix in Garmin using optionally Glonass (Russian satellites), there’s just a lot of stuff that can go sideways. Easy enough to buy a compass, map protector, local map. Even something like knowing what and how to shoot an emergency azimuth can solve an otherwise crisis situation.

ghaff 3y ago

There are a ton of situations where it’s really a good idea to have a paper backup. Traveling, especially internationally, and you lose your phone in a taxi? Do you know your itinerary and where you’re staying? I’m not religious about it for simple trips where I know where I’m staying but I definitely make a printout for anything more complex—but I bet a lot of people don’t.

davchana 3y ago
I was on my first travel trip to Rome, and dropped my phone & damaged it at Amsterdam airport while trying to charge it. All maps, instructions, how to reach hotel, public transportation help, everything was in that phone. God helped & Rome airport had public computer terminals at airport. Found some scrap paper, & drew the general directions to hotel.
- dboreham 3y ago
  I always carry my (N-1)th phone in my suitcase in case of such an event.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    Or for those with true tourist savvy, carry (N-1)th phone as primary in pickpocket public, and your current, flashy, expensive device is your backup instead.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I’m not sure I’m quite that paranoid but I can’t really argue. And already pretty much do it with the computer I travel with—my 8 year old laptop. But eg N-1 probably doesn’t have as good a camera if you do every 3-4 years like me. With some extended personal travel coming up I’ll definitely think about my strategies.
  - davchana 3y ago
    The onwards, I started carrying a second phone.
deafpolygon 3y ago
I always have paper printout, even if I'm using my smartphone as the main ticketing device. Phones break, cell service isn't 100%, battery could die.

cracrecry 3y ago

>any hiker is instructed to carry a paper map The best maps are cloth maps. They are amazing as you can bend those, put over a stone, rain could go over.

ghaff 3y ago
Tyvek works fine. But really anything is better than nothing if you know how to use it.

brightsize 3y ago

Re: hiking, your comment reminded me of this recent write-up in the Seattle Times. It's hard to imagine serious hikers hitting the trail in the PNW without at least one person in the party carrying the relevant Green Trails paper maps, but I suppose they exist. https://www.seattletimes.com/life/outdoors/seattle-mapmaker-celebrates-50-years-of-guiding-hikers/ https://www.seattletimes.com/life/outdoors/seattle-mapmaker-... “Your devices aren’t big enough to show you the context at any level of detail that from our point of view would be useful,” he said, citing the possibility of needing to find an escape route in a wildfire. “If you unfold a map, you can see where you are and get a better handle on where you can go.” Coburn’s stewardship also resulted in the durable quality of today’s Green Trails maps. Made of Polyart tearproof synthetic paper, with special ink to shade topographic relief, and printed at Capitol City Press in Olympia, these maps have a clear selling point: waterproof, solar-powered, no batteries required."

bhandziuk 3y ago
I got lazy about this when moving from Washington to Colorado. Many hours in Colorado are so exposed I can still basically see the car some 8 miles later and 6000 ft up.

dogman144 3y ago

Ya, lunacy to do any outdoors without paper map + compass beyond the there-and-back loop where you can still hear car traffic.

eternityforest 3y ago
Does anyone know how to use a map and compass? I don't think I could outside a city. Everyone talks about the physical maps, but the bigger issue is without the skill the map is useless, and if you've always had a phone, the true terror of being lost and alone might not enter your mind till you're there. I guess I'm lucky that I often forget my charger and wind up having no clue where I am and trying to get back by asking directions, I'm well aware of how awful it is to have no idea where you are or what direction you're facing or if you're in the right city!
- ghaff 3y ago
  Sure. I usually just use GPS but I absolutely know how to read a trail map. Orienteering off-trail is a bit rusty but I can absolutely deal with most map and compass navigation.
- dogman144 3y ago
  I do not know anyone serious about the outdoors that does not know how to use a map and compass. Extremely straightforward to learn. I hike with a Garmin foretrex, I route plan and land nav when out there with a map. The garmin sanity checks me once in a while. There is a significant amount of bad stuff that can go very wrong, to start, just bc your Garmin’s altimeter and calibration is bugging out while you mindlessly follow. And when you’re in areas where this matters (ie “can I hear street noise” judgment”), the out of the box technical land navigation tools tend to not work out of the box. I’ve had an updated and calibrated Garmin put me 5-600m away from where I definitely was via map, compass triangulation and then sanity check with a iPhone b/c the difference really surprised me. 5-600m difference is quite consequential. Mix in Garmin using optionally Glonass (Russian satellites), there’s just a lot of stuff that can go sideways. Easy enough to buy a compass, map protector, local map. Even something like knowing what and how to shoot an emergency azimuth can solve an otherwise crisis situation.