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> because the whole point is to compete with the underlying works I don't see how this is the case and if it hinged on that, how is it different from a book ci

> because the whole point is to compete with the underlying works I don't see how this is the case and if it hinged on that, how is it different from a book citing another book. That book competes with the book it's citing.

tivert 3y ago
>> because the whole point is to compete with the underlying works > I don't see how this is the case If it wasn't the case, what's the point of these models getting billions of dollars thrown at them? What's the actual sales pitch for using them in the economy? > and if it hinged on that, how is it different from a book citing another book. That book competes with the book it's citing. One of the obvious differences is these models don't cite their sources. Even if you can get them to generate something that looks like a cite, it's not a real cite of the works the model actually used.
- brigadier132 3y ago
  > If it wasn't the case, what's the point of these models getting billions of dollars thrown at them? This is a digression. There are use cases other than creating competing books, do I need to actually list them out? - Turning unstructured text into structured data. - Summarizing news - Sentiment analysis - Semantic search - Helping people write research papers and more. How do any of those compete with fiction or non-fiction books? > One of the obvious differences is these models don't cite their sources. Do I need to cite the math textbook that I used to learn algebra when I write a book on calculus?
  - tremon 3y ago
    Did you miss the "generative AI" in the headline? All the examples you list are general applications of NLP's, not of generative AI. Your argument would be similar to defending nuclear missiles by listing all the good things that a nuclear power plant can bring. Do I need to cite the math textbook that I used to learn algebra when I write a book on calculus? Yes, you do, if you put verbatim snippets of those textbooks in your own work.
    - brigadier132 3y ago
      > All the examples you list are general applications of NLP's, not of generative AI. I think you are being purposefully obtuse.
    - kuchenbecker 3y ago
      My opinion means very little, but AI like to see a solution that preserves generative AI progress while giving incentives to use licensed content. E.g. "The burden of proof when republishing the output of AI generated content is on the person publishing the generated content. All unlicensed sources must be cited in a public searchable index." With this, if you're a company and you accidentally use the output of Generative AI you have liability if the work is infringement. This gives companies an incentive to have licenses for their content but doesn't strictly prohibit ~linking~ sourcing from publically available content. This will also allow the industry to use publicly viewable content to push the boundaries of generative AI in a research capacity without fear of liability. A person could tell a sufficiently advanced generative AI trained on licensed data to recreate something under copywrite by just describing it. You would not be able to publish that output.
  - tivert 3y ago
    > This is a digression. There are use cases other than creating competing books, do I need to actually list them out? Are the generative models crippled to only be able to do those things? And some of the things you list are also likely to be in direct competition with the original works (e.g. "Summarizing news.") I believe "AI" generated news sites are already a thing (e.g. plagiarizing/summarizing original news articles, so another party can generate ad-revenue from them). > Do I need to cite the math textbook that I used to learn algebra when I write a book on calculus? No, because I previously said: "...generative AI systems aren't people, so I think it's totally fair to not grant their operators rights by analogy to something a human [mind] would do."
belorn 3y ago
I do not see how a book citing an other book is commercial competing. Citations in most cases enhances the original book in same way that research papers cite each other, which then is used as a measurement of the value of the original paper. Some citations that criticize the original book could be used in direct competition, but that follows a very distinct fair use exception that critique and reviews enjoys. Could you provide an example of a book citing an other book which as a result competed with the book it cited that would not fall under critique or review?

tivert 3y ago

>> because the whole point is to compete with the underlying works > I don't see how this is the case If it wasn't the case, what's the point of these models getting billions of dollars thrown at them? What's the actual sales pitch for using them in the economy? > and if it hinged on that, how is it different from a book citing another book. That book competes with the book it's citing. One of the obvious differences is these models don't cite their sources. Even if you can get them to generate something that looks like a cite, it's not a real cite of the works the model actually used.

brigadier132 3y ago
> If it wasn't the case, what's the point of these models getting billions of dollars thrown at them? This is a digression. There are use cases other than creating competing books, do I need to actually list them out? - Turning unstructured text into structured data. - Summarizing news - Sentiment analysis - Semantic search - Helping people write research papers and more. How do any of those compete with fiction or non-fiction books? > One of the obvious differences is these models don't cite their sources. Do I need to cite the math textbook that I used to learn algebra when I write a book on calculus?
- tremon 3y ago
  Did you miss the "generative AI" in the headline? All the examples you list are general applications of NLP's, not of generative AI. Your argument would be similar to defending nuclear missiles by listing all the good things that a nuclear power plant can bring. Do I need to cite the math textbook that I used to learn algebra when I write a book on calculus? Yes, you do, if you put verbatim snippets of those textbooks in your own work.
  - brigadier132 3y ago
    > All the examples you list are general applications of NLP's, not of generative AI. I think you are being purposefully obtuse.
  - kuchenbecker 3y ago
    My opinion means very little, but AI like to see a solution that preserves generative AI progress while giving incentives to use licensed content. E.g. "The burden of proof when republishing the output of AI generated content is on the person publishing the generated content. All unlicensed sources must be cited in a public searchable index." With this, if you're a company and you accidentally use the output of Generative AI you have liability if the work is infringement. This gives companies an incentive to have licenses for their content but doesn't strictly prohibit ~linking~ sourcing from publically available content. This will also allow the industry to use publicly viewable content to push the boundaries of generative AI in a research capacity without fear of liability. A person could tell a sufficiently advanced generative AI trained on licensed data to recreate something under copywrite by just describing it. You would not be able to publish that output.
- tivert 3y ago
  > This is a digression. There are use cases other than creating competing books, do I need to actually list them out? Are the generative models crippled to only be able to do those things? And some of the things you list are also likely to be in direct competition with the original works (e.g. "Summarizing news.") I believe "AI" generated news sites are already a thing (e.g. plagiarizing/summarizing original news articles, so another party can generate ad-revenue from them). > Do I need to cite the math textbook that I used to learn algebra when I write a book on calculus? No, because I previously said: "...generative AI systems aren't people, so I think it's totally fair to not grant their operators rights by analogy to something a human [mind] would do."

belorn 3y ago

I do not see how a book citing an other book is commercial competing. Citations in most cases enhances the original book in same way that research papers cite each other, which then is used as a measurement of the value of the original paper. Some citations that criticize the original book could be used in direct competition, but that follows a very distinct fair use exception that critique and reviews enjoys. Could you provide an example of a book citing an other book which as a result competed with the book it cited that would not fall under critique or review?