18 ms·

Apache's stubborn refusal to direct OpenOffice users towards LibreOffice has done immeasurable harm to the Apache brand and it's basically ruined the OpenOffice

by yrro 3y ago

Apache's stubborn refusal to direct OpenOffice users towards LibreOffice has done immeasurable harm to the Apache brand and it's basically ruined the OpenOffice brand. A great example of the damage that can be done by poor stewardship.

tombert 3y ago
Honestly I didn't even know that OpenOffice was even ostensibly maintained anymore. I've not heard of anyone using it in about a decade.
- davidgerard 3y ago
  It gets millions of downloads, putting users in danger who mistakenly think anyone is still maintaining this thing.
  - tombert 3y ago
    Yeah, I agree. I think it would make sense to have a big disclaimer on the OpenOffice site saying "No longer maintained, please consider using these alternatives..." and link to a few other open source office suites (e.g. LibreOffice, Caligra)
  - arp242 3y ago
    But it is maintained? That it's not maintained in the way you or I might like isn't the same as "not maintained".
    - tombert 3y ago
      I'd argue that "adding spaces to the readme" is really stretching the definition of the word "maintained". If they're not fixing bugs (particularly security bugs), and if they're not adding new features, what exactly are they "maintaining"?
      - arp242 3y ago
        They claim they do fix security problems though. And "doesn't really change much" is not a bad thing, it's an okay preference to have. I'd be perfectly happy using Opera 12 from 2012 – "warts and all" – with some minor changes (it actually runs fairly well today, with the major problem being lack of CSS variables, JS template strings, and a few other relatively minor additions).
jszymborski 3y ago
I think the continued co-opting of the name of a first nation as their "brand" despite repeated calls from stake holders to do otherwise has caused plenty of harm to the ASF brand.
- jointhehorse 3y ago
  It's no worse than Amazon being named after the rainforest and river despite not originating there, or Apple being named after the fruit despite not being a greengrocer. Names get reused, it's not a big deal.
  - travisjungroth 3y ago
    Amazon is a place. Apple is a fruit. Apache is a people. Specifically, a people that had genocide committed against them. It’s at least a little worse.
    - jointhehorse 3y ago
      Worse how? The ASF isn't murdering anyone or saying that mass killings from hundreds of years ago were a good thing. All they did was reuse a name. What's the problem?
      - travisjungroth 3y ago
        I'll take it that you really want the answer to these questions. The Apache are a group of tribes in Southwest. The name comes from Spanish when the Conquistadors invaded. The tribes didn't have a strong group identity. This changed over the next few hundred years. More than can fit in an HN comment, entire cultures were destroyed. This was through disease, war, imprisonment, and outright repression. "Apache" is an identity that some still hold on to after this genocide. And someone saw this history, thought what these people went through "romantically represented" his web server project, and took on the name. If you don't see how this is any different from calling your company Apple so you show up ahead of Atari in the phone book, I don't know what to tell you.
lbhdc 3y ago
Has it? I have used both libreoffice and openoffice, I had no idea openoffice was related to asf until I read your post. I have heard other talk about how people should use libreoffice, but it isn't apparent why.
- yrro 3y ago
  Back in the day there was real interest in "OpenOffice" among non-geeks. Governments were mandating that documents be published in OpenDocument format. Microsoft sought to muddy the waters by publishing the confusing "Office Open XML" format (which they then never implemented). And then OpenOffice the project just... stopped. No new features, and eventually no new releases. And by squatting on the brand, they prevented that momentum from transferring to LibreOffice.
  - arp242 3y ago
    > which they then never implemented Isn't .docx, .xlsx, etc. all OOXML?
    - yencabulator 3y ago
      Try interpreting them based on just the published standards, see how far that gets you.
      - arp242 3y ago
        So how far does that get me?
        yencabulator 3y ago
        To a point where your program won't understand/be able to edit a simple document created by Microsoft tools. In some cases, you'll see an embedded binary blob that's actually an ActiveX executable in an OLE container. Here's some classic rants: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML https://ooxmlisdefectivebydesign.blogspot.com/ https://ooxmlisdefectivebydesign.blogspot.com/ http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#Ecma_376_relies_on_undisclosed_information http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#E... (especially in combination with: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#End-User_License_Agreements_.28EULAs.29_may_forbid_full_implementation http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#E... )

by yrro 3y ago

tombert 3y ago

Honestly I didn't even know that OpenOffice was even ostensibly maintained anymore. I've not heard of anyone using it in about a decade.

davidgerard 3y ago
It gets millions of downloads, putting users in danger who mistakenly think anyone is still maintaining this thing.
- tombert 3y ago
  Yeah, I agree. I think it would make sense to have a big disclaimer on the OpenOffice site saying "No longer maintained, please consider using these alternatives..." and link to a few other open source office suites (e.g. LibreOffice, Caligra)
- arp242 3y ago
  But it is maintained? That it's not maintained in the way you or I might like isn't the same as "not maintained".
  - tombert 3y ago
    I'd argue that "adding spaces to the readme" is really stretching the definition of the word "maintained". If they're not fixing bugs (particularly security bugs), and if they're not adding new features, what exactly are they "maintaining"?
    - arp242 3y ago
      They claim they do fix security problems though. And "doesn't really change much" is not a bad thing, it's an okay preference to have. I'd be perfectly happy using Opera 12 from 2012 – "warts and all" – with some minor changes (it actually runs fairly well today, with the major problem being lack of CSS variables, JS template strings, and a few other relatively minor additions).

jszymborski 3y ago

I think the continued co-opting of the name of a first nation as their "brand" despite repeated calls from stake holders to do otherwise has caused plenty of harm to the ASF brand.

jointhehorse 3y ago
It's no worse than Amazon being named after the rainforest and river despite not originating there, or Apple being named after the fruit despite not being a greengrocer. Names get reused, it's not a big deal.
- travisjungroth 3y ago
  Amazon is a place. Apple is a fruit. Apache is a people. Specifically, a people that had genocide committed against them. It’s at least a little worse.
  - jointhehorse 3y ago
    Worse how? The ASF isn't murdering anyone or saying that mass killings from hundreds of years ago were a good thing. All they did was reuse a name. What's the problem?
    - travisjungroth 3y ago
      I'll take it that you really want the answer to these questions. The Apache are a group of tribes in Southwest. The name comes from Spanish when the Conquistadors invaded. The tribes didn't have a strong group identity. This changed over the next few hundred years. More than can fit in an HN comment, entire cultures were destroyed. This was through disease, war, imprisonment, and outright repression. "Apache" is an identity that some still hold on to after this genocide. And someone saw this history, thought what these people went through "romantically represented" his web server project, and took on the name. If you don't see how this is any different from calling your company Apple so you show up ahead of Atari in the phone book, I don't know what to tell you.

lbhdc 3y ago

Has it? I have used both libreoffice and openoffice, I had no idea openoffice was related to asf until I read your post. I have heard other talk about how people should use libreoffice, but it isn't apparent why.

yrro 3y ago
Back in the day there was real interest in "OpenOffice" among non-geeks. Governments were mandating that documents be published in OpenDocument format. Microsoft sought to muddy the waters by publishing the confusing "Office Open XML" format (which they then never implemented). And then OpenOffice the project just... stopped. No new features, and eventually no new releases. And by squatting on the brand, they prevented that momentum from transferring to LibreOffice.
- arp242 3y ago
  > which they then never implemented Isn't .docx, .xlsx, etc. all OOXML?
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    Try interpreting them based on just the published standards, see how far that gets you.
    - arp242 3y ago
      So how far does that get me?
      - yencabulator 3y ago
        To a point where your program won't understand/be able to edit a simple document created by Microsoft tools. In some cases, you'll see an embedded binary blob that's actually an ActiveX executable in an OLE container. Here's some classic rants: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML https://ooxmlisdefectivebydesign.blogspot.com/ https://ooxmlisdefectivebydesign.blogspot.com/ http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#Ecma_376_relies_on_undisclosed_information http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#E... (especially in combination with: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#End-User_License_Agreements_.28EULAs.29_may_forbid_full_implementation http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#E... )