5 ms·

Box of donated artifacts turns out to be treasure trove of Neanderthal bones

92 points by wglb 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
steve_adams_86 3y ago
The more I learn about Neanderthals, the more I suspect they were very, very similar to us in many ways. In the same way that looking out into the universe makes me feel very small, the notion of history spanning back incomprehensibly with all of these lives of other people, even outside of my own species, is so humbling. One thing I'm curious about is how the pottery connects to the bones. Is this evidence that they made pottery, or did the pottery get deposited later? I thought ceramics weren't around until ~20k years ago, but I'm not super current on this stuff. If it dates back 50k years and neanderthals made it, isn't that a huge deal?
- trumbitta2 3y ago
  But they are. What I've always known (but I can't remember where I got it from) is that they never vanished/extinguished. They just merged with Home Sapiens.
- pests 3y ago
  I find it insanely crazy that a mere 50k years ago we shared the planet with another human species. Then only a little further back there were potentially multiple. Amazing video I watched yesterday. "When We Met Other Human Species" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdYwMLSNHnU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdYwMLSNHnU
  - bluedevil2k 3y ago
    > with another human species With several! Neanderthals, Denisovans, Floriensis, and a species recently found in the Philippines.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  > In the same way that looking out into the universe makes me feel very small it's my personal project to get people to stop thinking and feeling this: we are not insignificant specks, we are close to all there is. Till we humans discover any alien intelligence out there (and we've tried), we (and our creations if you want to include AIs) are the most complex and interesting things that we know of. When you look out at the universe you should see a whole lot of nothing: what is the sun but a giant agglomeration of a few processes (a few different fusions, radiation and absorption) and what are the other stars but more of the same, with a deep gravity well here and there. Rather, it's us who is something, it's us who even created the concept of something, and the concept of significance. We assign those values. Without us, the universe might just be dead. > In the same way that looking out into the universe makes me feel very large indeed, the notion of history spanning back such a short time to encompass all of us and our thinking, the only thinking we know of, gives us a great connection to these lives of other people, even outside of our own species, and should fill us with pride, the only pride there is in the universe afaik. Sagan, Harari, Hossenfelder, and Feynmann to name a few, are always selling us ideas like "math and science make nature more beautiful". No, humans make nature, and math and science, beautiful. Everywhere in the universe they say, "you want to make an apple pie from scratch? First you must ask a human."
  - HankB99 3y ago
    > ... we (and our creations if you want to include AIs) are the most complex and interesting things that we know of. One viewpoint, I suppose. I think the cosmos and all of the things that compose it (including us) is the most complex and interesting thing that we (partially) know. And there is much yet to learn.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    Every single stellar system that we've explored has been found to have intelligent life. Now with a sample size of one you could argue that I'm being optimistically misleading - and you would be correct. But likewise I respect but respectfully disagree with the notion that we are likely the only intelligent life in the universe. We might never communicate with an extra-solar being, simply due to the sheer size of the universe. But it is extraordinarily pompous to think that we are unique, special, or even alone.
bluedevil2k 3y ago
I've read a few place that the population of Neanderthals peaked around 10,000 and the lack of genetic diversity was what contributed to their downfall and replacement by Homo Sapiens. However, I found this interesting article that tries to rationalize the sheer volume of bones and tools from Neanderthals against their seemingly negligible populations. The scientist believes populations peaked at over 100,000 across Europe. Amazing what genetic analysis can attempt to prove nowadays. https://www.quantamagazine.org/genetics-spills-secrets-from-neanderthals-lost-history-20170918/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/genetics-spills-secrets-from-...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ftxbro 3y ago
> they found a wisdom tooth that had once belonged to one of the individuals whose bones were found What if the reason we have problems with wisdom teeth is that some of us have neanderthal sized teeth but a homo sapiens sized jaw.
- mikea1 3y ago
  According to the book Breath by James Nestor, humans did not always have wisdom teeth problems: today, modern humans have small jaws because, during our youth, we spend less time chewing our food, so the muscles and bones in our skulls are stunted. Old skulls, like those found in crypts of old European cities, had larger jaws. (I'm going off of memory - my apologies if this explanation is too reductionist.)
  - steve_adams_86 3y ago
    The mechanics of oral health are really interesting in regards to foods and chewing them. It seems like processed foods are likely a massive contributor to declining oral health. The more you need to chew your food, the better, from what I can tell. Our foods used to be way harder to consume. Not only would that lead to people having healthier teeth and gums (just like your pet dog!), but it likely helped people maintain healthier body weights as well.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      Poor oral health also leads to a lot of other problems, stemming from bacterial infections that can spread to almost anywhere else in the body.
  - otabdeveloper4 3y ago
    "Wisdom teeth problems" largely do not exist. It's a scam American doctors perpetuate because it's profitable.
    - clarionbell 3y ago
      Said a person who never had an impacted wisdom tooth.
datavirtue 3y ago
[flagged]
zxcnmbzxcmb 3y ago
50k years ago and ceramics? If these are from the same period of time, wouldn't that predate all known earthenware ceramics? I'm not an expert at all so idk.
- koheripbal 3y ago
  More likely is that the cave was used by other groups at a later time.
abeppu 3y ago
So, presumably Aznar donated them to a museum out of a desire for them to be studied and shared with the world. It took 34 years for anyone to look into it. Should he have not donated them to this museum?

92 points by wglb 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

The more I learn about Neanderthals, the more I suspect they were very, very similar to us in many ways. In the same way that looking out into the universe makes me feel very small, the notion of history spanning back incomprehensibly with all of these lives of other people, even outside of my own species, is so humbling. One thing I'm curious about is how the pottery connects to the bones. Is this evidence that they made pottery, or did the pottery get deposited later? I thought ceramics weren't around until ~20k years ago, but I'm not super current on this stuff. If it dates back 50k years and neanderthals made it, isn't that a huge deal?

trumbitta2 3y ago
But they are. What I've always known (but I can't remember where I got it from) is that they never vanished/extinguished. They just merged with Home Sapiens.
pests 3y ago
I find it insanely crazy that a mere 50k years ago we shared the planet with another human species. Then only a little further back there were potentially multiple. Amazing video I watched yesterday. "When We Met Other Human Species" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdYwMLSNHnU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdYwMLSNHnU
- bluedevil2k 3y ago
  > with another human species With several! Neanderthals, Denisovans, Floriensis, and a species recently found in the Philippines.
fsckboy 3y ago
> In the same way that looking out into the universe makes me feel very small it's my personal project to get people to stop thinking and feeling this: we are not insignificant specks, we are close to all there is. Till we humans discover any alien intelligence out there (and we've tried), we (and our creations if you want to include AIs) are the most complex and interesting things that we know of. When you look out at the universe you should see a whole lot of nothing: what is the sun but a giant agglomeration of a few processes (a few different fusions, radiation and absorption) and what are the other stars but more of the same, with a deep gravity well here and there. Rather, it's us who is something, it's us who even created the concept of something, and the concept of significance. We assign those values. Without us, the universe might just be dead. > In the same way that looking out into the universe makes me feel very large indeed, the notion of history spanning back such a short time to encompass all of us and our thinking, the only thinking we know of, gives us a great connection to these lives of other people, even outside of our own species, and should fill us with pride, the only pride there is in the universe afaik. Sagan, Harari, Hossenfelder, and Feynmann to name a few, are always selling us ideas like "math and science make nature more beautiful". No, humans make nature, and math and science, beautiful. Everywhere in the universe they say, "you want to make an apple pie from scratch? First you must ask a human."
- HankB99 3y ago
  > ... we (and our creations if you want to include AIs) are the most complex and interesting things that we know of. One viewpoint, I suppose. I think the cosmos and all of the things that compose it (including us) is the most complex and interesting thing that we (partially) know. And there is much yet to learn.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  Every single stellar system that we've explored has been found to have intelligent life. Now with a sample size of one you could argue that I'm being optimistically misleading - and you would be correct. But likewise I respect but respectfully disagree with the notion that we are likely the only intelligent life in the universe. We might never communicate with an extra-solar being, simply due to the sheer size of the universe. But it is extraordinarily pompous to think that we are unique, special, or even alone.

bluedevil2k 3y ago

I've read a few place that the population of Neanderthals peaked around 10,000 and the lack of genetic diversity was what contributed to their downfall and replacement by Homo Sapiens. However, I found this interesting article that tries to rationalize the sheer volume of bones and tools from Neanderthals against their seemingly negligible populations. The scientist believes populations peaked at over 100,000 across Europe. Amazing what genetic analysis can attempt to prove nowadays. https://www.quantamagazine.org/genetics-spills-secrets-from-neanderthals-lost-history-20170918/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/genetics-spills-secrets-from-...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ftxbro 3y ago

> they found a wisdom tooth that had once belonged to one of the individuals whose bones were found What if the reason we have problems with wisdom teeth is that some of us have neanderthal sized teeth but a homo sapiens sized jaw.

mikea1 3y ago
According to the book Breath by James Nestor, humans did not always have wisdom teeth problems: today, modern humans have small jaws because, during our youth, we spend less time chewing our food, so the muscles and bones in our skulls are stunted. Old skulls, like those found in crypts of old European cities, had larger jaws. (I'm going off of memory - my apologies if this explanation is too reductionist.)
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  The mechanics of oral health are really interesting in regards to foods and chewing them. It seems like processed foods are likely a massive contributor to declining oral health. The more you need to chew your food, the better, from what I can tell. Our foods used to be way harder to consume. Not only would that lead to people having healthier teeth and gums (just like your pet dog!), but it likely helped people maintain healthier body weights as well.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Poor oral health also leads to a lot of other problems, stemming from bacterial infections that can spread to almost anywhere else in the body.
- otabdeveloper4 3y ago
  "Wisdom teeth problems" largely do not exist. It's a scam American doctors perpetuate because it's profitable.
  - clarionbell 3y ago
    Said a person who never had an impacted wisdom tooth.

datavirtue 3y ago

[flagged]

zxcnmbzxcmb 3y ago

50k years ago and ceramics? If these are from the same period of time, wouldn't that predate all known earthenware ceramics? I'm not an expert at all so idk.

koheripbal 3y ago
More likely is that the cave was used by other groups at a later time.

abeppu 3y ago

So, presumably Aznar donated them to a museum out of a desire for them to be studied and shared with the world. It took 34 years for anyone to look into it. Should he have not donated them to this museum?