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If you rent a vehicle, then by definition, you are not the owner though? EDIT: I also note that there was another topic on HN not too long ago about car manufa

If you rent a vehicle, then by definition, you are not the owner though? EDIT: I also note that there was another topic on HN not too long ago about car manufacturers being accused of not doing enough about theft (apparently "smart" locks are easy enough to bypass). So a "locate my car/laptop if stolen" feature is a trade-off against privacy and other risks. Personally I think the choice should be with the device owner in the end, but obviously, a remote tracking feature that a thief can easily disable is not much use for end-users who do want the feature.

mdp2021 3y ago
> If you rent a vehicle, then by definition, you are not the owner though? No, you misunderstood the point: the "kill-switch" feature was implemented in case the car is for rental, but the result is that bought cars also contain it. So you would be driving something with an embedded kill-switch - because the manufacturer saw it would be useful under some cases, so it just installed it as part of the bundle. For that matter - as you also point out -, it can also come useful in case the car is stolen. Unfortunately, it also represents a security issue, pretty clearly: it is there, accessible by those who can gain access to it... So, > the choice should be with the device owner in the end And apparently it is not. How would you remove that module, if you want to?
- red_admiral 3y ago
  I am personally very much in the "owner has the right to disable all remote/telemetry features" camp, even to the extent that I wouldn't mind the EU imposing regulations on this (which I can almost guarantee will produce another HN discussion on how the EU is anti-tech and anti-innovation). Are there any documented cases of kill-switch misuse though? If it's actually happening, then that's a stronger argument to me than a hypothetical one. I'm pretty sure most laptops have something like this too, though on some models you may be able to disable this in the BIOS?
  - throwaway69070 3y ago
    EU has regulation that every car (newer than 2018) has to be connected. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-emergencies/emergency-assistance-vehicles-ecall/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em... EU in general advocates for monitoring, not against it. If you think GDPR is an example of anti-monitoring regulation, read it carefully - there are exceptions for monitoring, practically every clause says "unless required to track by law" and "doesn't apply to the state".
    - mdp2021 3y ago
      According to that page, > Your eCall system is only activated if your vehicle is involved in a serious accident. The rest of the time the system remains inactive. This means that when you are simply driving your vehicle, no tracking (registering your car's position or monitoring your driving) or transmission of data takes place the problem is, implementation is left to manufacturers, so it has to be verified whether each eCall card actually, really «remains inactive».
      - throwaway69070 3y ago
        Indeed. And there is no option to disable the behavior - so the user has lost control over their own vehicle. It's similar to how PSD2 demanded specific payment flows and thus Google Pay was born - yeah they could have implemented it in a more privacy-friendly way (like Apple did), but they didn't - and EU demands the flows, so card-like payments without an online backend are no longer possible with your phone. Thanks EU!
        mdp2021 3y ago
        > no option to disable the behavior Actually, the directive specifies that the eCall must be implemented so that it cannot be disabled by the user but can be disabled by the manufacturer. > specific payment flows ... online backend Similarly, europe's demand that the feature of internet services are provided for all payment channels seems to be one of the reasons why channels that did not use NFC - simpler ones - have disappeared. Forcing the model "money can be taken from you without your actful, explicit consent", through radio-enabled cards. The european union has destroyed a good amount of civilization.
mdp2021 3y ago
> car manufacturers being accused of not doing enough about theft (apparently "smart" locks are easy enough to bypass) That is a different point, and it reinforces the main one. You must have noticed that car manufacturers have implemented car remotes that broadcast keys continuously. They are everywhere now. If this is the awareness and focus that manufacturers adopt when planning a product, how concerned should you be with the rest of the involved "sensitive issues"?!

mdp2021 3y ago

> If you rent a vehicle, then by definition, you are not the owner though? No, you misunderstood the point: the "kill-switch" feature was implemented in case the car is for rental, but the result is that bought cars also contain it. So you would be driving something with an embedded kill-switch - because the manufacturer saw it would be useful under some cases, so it just installed it as part of the bundle. For that matter - as you also point out -, it can also come useful in case the car is stolen. Unfortunately, it also represents a security issue, pretty clearly: it is there, accessible by those who can gain access to it... So, > the choice should be with the device owner in the end And apparently it is not. How would you remove that module, if you want to?

red_admiral 3y ago
I am personally very much in the "owner has the right to disable all remote/telemetry features" camp, even to the extent that I wouldn't mind the EU imposing regulations on this (which I can almost guarantee will produce another HN discussion on how the EU is anti-tech and anti-innovation). Are there any documented cases of kill-switch misuse though? If it's actually happening, then that's a stronger argument to me than a hypothetical one. I'm pretty sure most laptops have something like this too, though on some models you may be able to disable this in the BIOS?
- throwaway69070 3y ago
  EU has regulation that every car (newer than 2018) has to be connected. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-emergencies/emergency-assistance-vehicles-ecall/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em... EU in general advocates for monitoring, not against it. If you think GDPR is an example of anti-monitoring regulation, read it carefully - there are exceptions for monitoring, practically every clause says "unless required to track by law" and "doesn't apply to the state".
  - mdp2021 3y ago
    According to that page, > Your eCall system is only activated if your vehicle is involved in a serious accident. The rest of the time the system remains inactive. This means that when you are simply driving your vehicle, no tracking (registering your car's position or monitoring your driving) or transmission of data takes place the problem is, implementation is left to manufacturers, so it has to be verified whether each eCall card actually, really «remains inactive».
    - throwaway69070 3y ago
      Indeed. And there is no option to disable the behavior - so the user has lost control over their own vehicle. It's similar to how PSD2 demanded specific payment flows and thus Google Pay was born - yeah they could have implemented it in a more privacy-friendly way (like Apple did), but they didn't - and EU demands the flows, so card-like payments without an online backend are no longer possible with your phone. Thanks EU!
      - mdp2021 3y ago
        > no option to disable the behavior Actually, the directive specifies that the eCall must be implemented so that it cannot be disabled by the user but can be disabled by the manufacturer. > specific payment flows ... online backend Similarly, europe's demand that the feature of internet services are provided for all payment channels seems to be one of the reasons why channels that did not use NFC - simpler ones - have disappeared. Forcing the model "money can be taken from you without your actful, explicit consent", through radio-enabled cards. The european union has destroyed a good amount of civilization.

mdp2021 3y ago

> car manufacturers being accused of not doing enough about theft (apparently "smart" locks are easy enough to bypass) That is a different point, and it reinforces the main one. You must have noticed that car manufacturers have implemented car remotes that broadcast keys continuously. They are everywhere now. If this is the awareness and focus that manufacturers adopt when planning a product, how concerned should you be with the rest of the involved "sensitive issues"?!