25 ms·

People who can't give up paper

143 points by luigi23 3y ago

goatsneez 3y ago
... the entire Germany in the most comprehensive and pervading (bureaucratic process integration kind of way) that is conceivable for a human being in 21st century. Germany. https://www.dw.com/en/germans-use-more-paper-than-any-other-g20-country/a-50709033 https://www.dw.com/en/germans-use-more-paper-than-any-other-...
dzonga 3y ago
I support paper notebooks compared to the e-forms. I can bet a notes written today in a paper notebook - would be accessible 200+ years from now. compared to notes written in some notebook app. whether inaccessibility is due to data damage, lost passwords etc. whereas with a notebook as long as it's not damaged by fire. it should be good. also invest in waterproof paper notebooks i.e stone-paper.
- FalconSensei 3y ago
  > I can bet a notes written today in a paper notebook - would be accessible 200+ years from now. compared to notes written in some notebook app I think it's the opposite, at least if you use obsidian or just md files. With paper notes, they can get lost more easily, there are no backups. In many countries, termites are a real problem (tell that to my damaged comic books and magic cards). If you use md files (which are just text files) + git/cloud/external drive backups, you are unlikely to lose them
  - amerine 3y ago
    I think you are severely underestimating the complexity of preserving digital data for 200+ years. It’s not trivial, but a family could totally put a box of notebooks and loose papers in a box in a dry/somewhat safe location and pretty much guarantee they will still be usable/viewable in 200+ years without any electricity/file format/solar flare/emp/etc/etc issues to have to consider. I’m not disagreeing that it’s wonderful to be able to make multiple backups, offsite storage, etc of digital data, I’m just making sure you understand how difficult it is to keep digital data stored long term without significant attention to that desire. Dropping some markdown in git is not a long-term (using 200 yrs as my example) plan. I spent years and years working in a newspaper publisher trying to preserve the output digitally and it required serious investment (network storage, auto backup to LTO tapes, and verifying recovery is possible years later). It was and almost always is easier to ship two or three copies of the physical paper to separate storage facilities. I had to remind folks countless times that things like a dvd-r or cd-r have a maximal lifetime where we can trust that the data is retrievable. Maybe long term storage of personal data will have some future breakthroughs that make it dead simple to trust they can be viewable in 200+ years but today that’s not the case. I will say that most personal data (sans photos imo) isn’t useful after a few years (maybe 10+) and digital options are great for that. But for stuff we want to keep for centuries, it’s extremely hard and expensive today.
    - FalconSensei 3y ago
      > I think you are severely underestimating the complexity of preserving digital data for 200+ years although I doubt my personal notes will be necessary in 200+ years
      - amerine 3y ago
        Big same. It might be a curiosity to my kids (or grandkids if I have those) but I doubt anyone beyond that will care
        allturtles 3y ago
        Your personal notes are probably not significant in and of themselves, but historians will certainly care if no one's personal notes from today are preserved 200 years from now.
      - jackthetab 3y ago
        _Ea-nasir enters the chat_
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Most paper will not last 200 years in a normal climate. The acid treatment often used ensures it will break down in less than that. Sure if you actually have a dry climate and archival grade paper it can last thousands of years. However most of us don't have that. However most of us don't need that either. There are very few things you care about. I threw my kindergarten art out long ago when I realized I wasn't interested in seeing how I improved (back then I thought it would be cool to look back and see). There are things I have done I will care about, but not too many.
  - LeafItAlone 3y ago
    I recently moved and was going through boxes of stuff I had accumulated. In one of the boxes, I have notebooks from over 20 years ago. There is also a hard drive with an IDE connection on it packed around the same time. The papers were ever so slightly degraded, but immediately completely readable. I no longer have the hardware to read the hard drive (though, yes, I’m sure I can find some online or at a garage sale). This box of materials has now gone through at least ten moves with me. My money is, generally, on physical media.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > git/cloud/external drive backups, you are unlikely to lose them I can guarantee with total certainty that github & cloudprovider & your external drives will not exist in 200 years. Probably not even in 50. If you want to leave anything at all (photos, documents) for your grandchildren to see, how would you do it?
    - deafpolygon 3y ago
      How Gen A does it; cloud drive shared to your kids.
      - jjav 3y ago
        Right, which will go away as soon as cloudservice discontinues that feature or the company disappears. That is far from a long-term solution.
        deafpolygon 3y ago
        I don't disagree. What is the alternative? Locking them up on a disk that can't be accessed cross-platform? Self-hosting doesn't solve the "if you're hit by the bus" problem unless the next generation of your family is well-versed in technology.
        jjav 3y ago
        The alternative is in the title of this topic. For things that you truly want to preserve for generations, have them printed out to good quality paper.
    - FalconSensei 3y ago
      > I can guarantee with total certainty that github & cloudprovider & your external drives will not exist in 200 years. Probably not even in 50. tell me you don't know how doing backups work without telling me your don't know how doing backups work
      - 3y ago
  - twobitshifter 3y ago
    I’m trying to imagine a future where historians pour over modern day Leonardo’s markdown files.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
  >I can bet a notes written today in a paper notebook - would be accessible 200+ years from now. I bet if you got a sheet of granite and chiseled them into the granite, they would have a far better chance of surviving that a paper notebook.
netbioserror 3y ago
When it comes to tabletop gaming, I strongly prefer handwritten force lists and character sheets. Printed is okay, so long as they can be marked and modified on the fly with a pencil. Requiring someone to fiddle with a poorly-designed app to record momentary bookkeeping is downright obnoxious and will not stand for it.
- hinkley 3y ago
  I’ve seen some people use dry erase for consumables. I’ve also seen little magnets which would be cleaner.
zubairq 3y ago
I’m a developer and I still rely on paper to do some of my best work
- jebarker 3y ago
  Likewise. I've never found anything as effective as a pencil and paper as a scratchpad when thinking through problems. I also find a strange motivation day to day in checking items off a physical checklist/todo-list that I don't get from the digital equivalent. However, digital is indisputable king when it comes to sharing information.
- gwervc 3y ago
  Same here, and when I was a grad student (phd) I used to write most important sections of a paper on paper.
- dboreham 3y ago
  I've found that today's pen/tablet experience is pretty close to paper, with the added benefit that I can't lose the work and I can easily share it. Surface Pro X for me, but the larger iPads probably work as well for this.
_moof 3y ago
For me personally paper is indispensable as a design tool for sketching out complex systems. I "think" more clearly on paper than I do with any digital tool I've used. In an aviation context I mostly use an iPad these days (learned to fly long before iPads were a thing) but I carry some backup paper charts. I've had chargers fail mid-trip and the electronic flight bag apps are real power hogs. And that's not to mention the ever-present threat of GPS failure, which is very real.
- histriosum 3y ago
  I'm always fascinated with the folks who still carry paper sectionals.. at any given time in the cockpit Ive got three digital sources of charts that would have to fail, not counting whatever onboard gps I'm flying behind (primary tablet, backup tablet, phone).. I just can't find the point in carrying paper anymore, at least for my risk matrix.. Re: GPS failure, that's orthogonal to the paper argument, since paper doesn't provide GPS either.. I personally am looking forward to the day when paper charts stop being printed! Huge waste of resources that could be better allocated..
  - _moof 3y ago
    "Paper doesn't provide GPS" - spoken like a child of the magenta line! ;) Paper provides the VOR frequencies and visual navigation info, and approach procedures if you're really in a bind. It's also cheaper than a second tablet.
    - histriosum 3y ago
      I'm not sure if you're intentionally misreading my comment. It was in reply to your statement that GPS failure was a "real concern". I simply noted that GPS failure is orthogonal to the paper discussion. I'm quite happy to use pilotage to navigate, but lugging four sectionals around is a waste of my time and a waste of the FAAs resources to print. My state won the "let's see how annoying we can make these sectional divisions" contest. Just my local flying area is split onto three charts.
  - dogman144 3y ago
mmphosis 3y ago
As much as using a phone with nav software and a dedicated plotter is easier to use—when everything breaks, and it will, I rely on paper charts when sailing.
no_one_ever 3y ago
I did all of my note-taking on paper in school. I felt like I had to to keep up with complex visualizations and concepts. The habit has carried with me. I still keep those notebooks for reflection on what I studied. They're very valuable to me, even though I get teased for it. To me, it is like looking at a photograph of your younger brain.
gspencley 3y ago
I've worked in tech as a software engineer developing web applications for 25 years and I'm one of these people. For note taking, I prefer pen and paper. For diagramming and brainstorming, I prefer a physical whiteboard. For non-work related scheduling, I prefer marking things on the physical calendar hanging on my wall... or sometimes I'll reach for a post-it note. For bills, I prefer that my company mail me a paper bill. Especially if accessing the e-bill requires me to have an account with a web app and enable MFA and change my password every 90 days and always have Okta give me problems when I want to check my bill and thus need to jump through these hoops those whopping 12 times per year that I need this information. Maybe it's because I see how the sausage is made. Maybe it's because I use some sort of eletronic device all day for work. But the last thing I want to do when I need to jot something down quickly is reach for a phone or a laptop. Heck, most of the time I don't even remember (or care) where I left my phone.
- sixstringtheory 3y ago
  Same, iOS developer here. Maybe if software were treated less like fashion that had to constantly be updated, resulting in a neverending revolving door of bugs and new waves of learning curves, and instead like a focused tool, it could catch up more to paper. There are absolutely benefits to software over paper but they feel hamstrung by the constant desire to roll out the next UI paradigm. Sooner or later the set of constraints between device, OS and app versions forces an upgrade. Security updates should be the only reason to even hint at that possibility IMO. Maybe I’m just too close to the problem. If I squint enough I can see how a pen running out of ink is like an app crash, and replacing the pen/ink has a real, nonzero environmental cost. I’m not sure how to amortize the costs of device manufacture and software development across all bugs, and compare that to the costs/benefits of pen and paper. There is some shade of rose on my glasses, no doubt. I need more information, but I sense it’s not the kind of information that is important to many people, and especially corporations, to gather.
  - galdosdi 3y ago
    > If I squint enough I can see how a pen running out of ink is like an app crash Interesting analogy. I think a closer analogy to a pen running out of ink and having to grab another pen, is a laptop battery running low and having to be plugged in.
mongol 3y ago
My poor handwriting is something I am disappointed in myself with. I knew how to write quite well, but that skill went to shreds in university when I tried to write too much, too fast. My hand started to repulse the pen. It is as if it always wants to let go of it and only with mental force can be made to hold on and scribble some ugly notes in protest. If I slow down I can write prettier, but I don't have patience to write slowly.
karaterobot 3y ago
> Paper, it seems, still rules the waves. You'd be crazy to get rid of paper charts on a boat, for the same reason any hiker is instructed to carry a paper map, and the smart ones actually do it. Yeah, the primary system will be GPS, but that system requires a lot of things to be functioning which may not always be functioning. You need a backup, and paper is perfect for that.
- ghaff 3y ago
  There are a ton of situations where it’s really a good idea to have a paper backup. Traveling, especially internationally, and you lose your phone in a taxi? Do you know your itinerary and where you’re staying? I’m not religious about it for simple trips where I know where I’m staying but I definitely make a printout for anything more complex—but I bet a lot of people don’t.
  - davchana 3y ago
    I was on my first travel trip to Rome, and dropped my phone & damaged it at Amsterdam airport while trying to charge it. All maps, instructions, how to reach hotel, public transportation help, everything was in that phone. God helped & Rome airport had public computer terminals at airport. Found some scrap paper, & drew the general directions to hotel.
    - dboreham 3y ago
      I always carry my (N-1)th phone in my suitcase in case of such an event.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Or for those with true tourist savvy, carry (N-1)th phone as primary in pickpocket public, and your current, flashy, expensive device is your backup instead.
        ghaff 3y ago
PumpkinSpice 3y ago
It's fairly clear that paper is being driven out of most white collar settings. It's still invaluable in many blue collar jobs. Phones don't work all that well when you're wearing work gloves, ports get clogged with debris, screens crack when you're crawling through narrow openings or pushing heavy stuff. I have pencils and post-its in my electronics lab and I use them when working on digital circuits.
tivert 3y ago
People have been trained to fetishize "new" technology and dump on "old" technology. Frankly put: new is not always better. A technology is just a technology, and "new" technologies almost always introduce regressions along with whatever benefits the they bring. For instance: paper documents are generally more robust/reliable (as a practical matter), easily attached to physical items, and easier to annotate than any kind of digital document. Digital input methods are usually pretty awful, especially when you don't have the luxury of fumbling around for a few seconds (or more) with each input. IMHO, any reasonable-aware tech professional should be able to understand that. Especially given how frequently computer technology objectively sucks.
- eternityforest 3y ago
  I think paper probably really does have value for mental retention, but digital is so convenient it's easy to totally forget paper is a thing. Paper is easier to annotate, but if you didn't grow up with lots of paper, you don't notice, because annotating isn't something you think about, you mostly think in terms of quoting and leaving a comment. The medium shapes your thinking, and the stuff that's hard to do on paper doesn't really occur to you as something you'd want to do, unless you're deeply familiar with it. Just like any technology. Perhaps that's the big benefit, adding more variety of ways of thinking.
  - tivert 3y ago
    > Paper is easier to annotate, but if you didn't grow up with lots of paper, you don't notice, because annotating isn't something you think about, you mostly think in terms of quoting and leaving a comment. In other words, people can be fine with worse because they don't know better. One of the things that should be a deep embarrassment to the technology industry is its failure to replicate some of the strengths of paper and make them ubiquitous across platforms. Things actually seem to be settling for a lowest-common-denominator that's getting ever lower (e.g. people regularly resort to screenshotting text in 2023). > Perhaps that's the big benefit, adding more variety of ways of thinking. One of the strengths of paper is its flexibility: you can make pretty much any mark you want, not just marks approved and implemented by some 3rd party. You seem to be describing a situation where technical limitations (of digital systems) are so ingrained in people's thought processes that they have trouble thinking outside the little box they've been given.
agumonkey 3y ago
for everybody still on physical medium (be it paper, board, whatever), did you try to leverage digital tools thinking it would allow wider expressiveness, faster iteration, more precision and yet came back to paper ? if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working)
- gspencley 3y ago
  > if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working) There is some of that. But pen and paper has other benefits that are hard to match: - Pen & Paper works even if there is a service disruption / outage - Pen & Paper works even if the device's battery dies or the power goes out - Pen & Paper is fast. I don't need to unlock the screen, I don't experience progressive sluggishness due to memory leaks, analytics / telemetry running in the background or feature/library bloat - Pen & Paper doesn't send everything that I'm writing to some remote server for analytics purposes - Pen & Paper has never crashed on me - I get to decide if and when I want the newest version of pen/paper. I don't ever reach for Pen & Paper to discover that some product owner has pushed a change on me without my opt-in / consent. - Pen & Paper works in virtually every envrionment, regardless of whether I'm wearing gloves or my hands are cold (though admittedly cold hands can slow down the writing process, but much less so than trying to use a touch-screen or keyboard). - Pen & Paper is often easier to read (assuming the hand-writing is legible, which is admittedly hit or miss, but it causes much less eye fatigue than staring at a screen). - Pen & Paper doesn't distract me with spell/grammar checks that I don't need in the moment. Disabling / re-enabling these features is time consuming. - Pen & Paper is a technology that has truly stood the test of time. The fact that it continues to persist into the digital age is very telling. Sometimes "simple & works" beats new and featureful but complicated.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
stronglikedan 3y ago
Another paper user checking in. I even have two different types of pads. One with thin paper for taking notes in meetings and such, since they will be deciphered to better paper later, and the thin paper will be recycled. One for more robust paper to which said notes will be deciphered and arranged, which is also used for real work. Plus I find it very hard to read from screens, even e-ink, so I tend to print things out if it's going to be a long read.
TheCapeGreek 3y ago
Sometimes I want to get more into paper, so I have an excuse to buy pretty notebooks. I do that about once a year and never end up using it right now. Secondarily, hearing about our risks of EMPs from solar flares (or even in war scenarios), or in case of electrical grid collapse (a not-impossible scenario in some countries), paper is the only way I'll have survival knowledge available to me.
- foobarian 3y ago
  My favorite indulgence is high quality thesis-like paper. Archival quality, with nice cotton fibers. Pair with some nice ink nibs or fountain pens... ahhh
  - ramses0 3y ago
    Look for a ream of short-grain (bookbinding) paper. Other option is a ream or stack of 11x17 and have it yourself. Even a bit thinner it tends to be nice for writing.
V__ 3y ago
One of the great festures of using paper is, that it exists physically. I can see my stack of to-dos or bills or notes and this also helps remembeing where what what is. I don't have this experience using digital. My brain just remembers computer as the general location. I loose all spacial intuition. On the other side, this is great for anything I don't want to remember.
- pimlottc 3y ago
  This is an actual problem in government modernization projects. When legacy paper-based systems get overburdened, it's impossible not to notice growing stacks of file folders everywhere: on desks, on carts, in file cabinets, on shelves, in storerooms and storage facilities. But when the new digital systems back up, it's invisible. What's a few hundred thousand rows to a modern database?
- dboreham 3y ago
  I also like the spatial context, but tend to misplace paper. Suggest to try using multiple desktops: one for work project A, another for personal email, etc. Open a browser tab or text editor window on the top left of each desktop with a note about what this one is for. In the case of work projects that tab will often be the bug report covering the task at hand. This way when I get defocused, it's a simple process to tab between the desktops, reading the index tab to reacquire wtf this screen was for.
  - V__ 3y ago
    Thanks for the suggestions. Somehow, I never thought about using virtual desktops, but it sounds intriguing.
jimmaswell 3y ago
I've been writing some assembly, learning ED, and some other things on my Kaypro 1. I write notes on paper from the reference material on my desktop then go over to the Kaypro to apply it. Seems to work really well for learning and brings back memories of college classes.
m1n1 3y ago
A professor once gave me a demo of a printer that could erase its own work and print a new image on the same regular printer paper. In between the two prints he let me mark the page however I wanted so I could be sure it was the same physical page coming back out. He admitted there was no market for such a thing but it was cool to see anyways. This was in the mid 1990s
dogman144 3y ago
Really dislike the “give up” terminology and related digital nudging in group/out group. Just like I can’t give up: - paperless billing bc I’d like ironclad proof I’ve paid my mortgage off and have experienced plenty of database failures - driving without an insurance black box plugged into my car for a few % off my insurance - cash because it saves the small business a few % points and I’ve (/s) never seen a POS crash and burn before - paper maps bc you’re completely insane to do outdoors stuff without a paper map and analog compass. When you have the emergency that needs it, you’ll understand. The best success IT has had is convincing the world that the digital metaphor is as good, No… better! A total replacement! Stop killing the environment paper-man! … than the analog thing. I have no idea how you can work in and around technology and have this mindset. I get sketched flying on software-defined airplanes these days even. If the scheduling software falls over under load.. I’m sure that implies every other airline software is A+!
- didntcheck 3y ago
  The notion that paper letters are more authentic than digital has always confused me. If you can forge a realistic-looking PDF, you can also print it. On the other hand, an email still on Gmail's servers with headers showing its authenticated origin, or a document held in escrow by Docusign, seems like far more rigorous evidence in a hypothetical court dispute. And I'd have my bank statements as corroborating evidence, rather than relying on one company Ideally, companies would have well-known public keys and sign every PDF they send you. In practice, they don't, but it's not even (feasibly) possible to sign a paper letter, unless we're still counting a printed squiggle as some sort of proof. Holograms and other genuinely hard-to-print marks are presumably very effective against non-sophisticated forgers, but I only see them on a few government documents, not mortgage papers Also I'm aware that printers print identifying dots, and that is probably the downfall of many amateur forgers, but only because it allows you to find a smoking gun if the document is forged (and the printer was suspected a priori). But I imagine it's a lot harder to use that in the other direction, where a customer wants to prove a document did come from some company, as they'll presumably struggle to get their hands on the signatures of all the company's printers
  - 3y ago
qingcharles 3y ago
Most courts in the country have laws mandating electronic submissions for all documents. They all have to have an exception in the statute for prisoners as they are stuck using paper for everything.
helf 3y ago
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eternityforest 3y ago
I like the idea of paper. It's got some pretty cool uses. Sometimes I think I probably should use it more. Most of my favorite works of art, buildings I've enjoyed being in, an even a lot of tech had their beginnings on a page. But it's never something I just casually reach for, the thought of using physical media just doesn't really ever occur to me unless I'm specifically going out of my way. Digital is so much easier, no fighting your hands to make the letters readable, no worrying about losing anything, no need to physically sort things, no need to have dedicated space and time for it thanks to the portability and durability of the screen. The UI changes, apps go obsolete, but keeping up is just a matter of stuff you can learn on a random blog, not stuff that requires the long, hard process of figuring out how to translate thoughts into spatial patterns, which nobody can even describe really. It seems like using paper at least occasionally is probably a good idea. It's definitely gotten easier now that we have cheap space pens and A5 format binders that are a little more convenient than full pages.
- all2 3y ago
  I think differently on paper. For some reason my entire mode of reasoning shifts and the way I process information becomes different. Could I write the same thing in Vim? Sure. But for some reason paper makes my thoughts more careful, more substantial, as if the input latency gives me time to think.
Decabytes 3y ago
Too be fair I don't think the anti-paper crowd are talking about me. The amount of paper I consume is minuscule compared to large businesses. I use paper a lot more than the average person. I make paper from recycled junk mail, and I hand write all of my notes. I retain things better when I write them down on paper. I also look at screens for 12 hours a day so staring at a piece of paper is a reprieve. My only concern with moving entirely to digital is that it is not strictly better. Digital should be the best way to consume media but it often isn't. I don't own the digital media like I do with physical media. Buying brand new digital media is also waaay more expensive then getting used books on Ebay. This is all on top of the fact that we can barely keep services around for more than 10 years without them going away and being stuck with proprietary formats that are not accessible anymore. I am concerned for the day where everything is all digital, and then something catastrophic happens and we lose a significant chunk of our information. But maybe I'm just giving myself FUD
nottheengineer 3y ago
Paper has two objective advantages over digital: It's reliable and it doesn't scale. That makes it the only option for elections as any compromise of a digital system would instantly decide the outcome. With paper, a bag of ballots might be lost or a few fake ones introduced, but none of these attacks scale very well so if we can prevent most of them, that's good enough. I won't touch on preferring paper for visualizing thoughts because that's just preference, but seeing people prefer paper invoices over digital ones is just sad to see. On a conceptual level digital should always be preferrable, but we somehow managed to screw the inplementation up so bad that it's worse than no implementation. Why do we need to overcomplicate everything?
ilamont 3y ago
MIT is starting up a design center to be located in the old Metropolitan Warehouse. One of the directors on the engineering faculty has done a lot of research on how designers work, especially early stage design. When the center was profiled in Tech Review last year, she noted that sketching (including on paper) still has a role to play: Among other things, Yang has found that the very existence of those visual representations matters greatly: designers who do even basic, preliminary sketching consistently generate more design ideas. As she and a coauthor wrote in a 2007 paper, there is “an important interplay between a designer’s ability to sketch and their ability to visualize in their heads or through prototypes.” She has even found that if designers aren’t highly skilled at drawing, that doesn’t affect the quality of their final design outcomes; it just matters that they draw at all. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1063906/design-central/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1063906/design-c... Whiteboarding also falls into this realm ... not paper, but it enables the act of sketching without a digital intermediary.
gorgoiler 3y ago
Bound lab books with printed numbers on the pages are, I am led to believe, at the forefront of any technical defence of a patent or discovery. You just can’t fake ‘em. This is why I record all my ideas in a lab journal — a cargo cult it may be but we’ll see who’s laughing when I finally invent homomorphic encryption / perpetual motion / alchemy!
- throwaway87651 3y ago
  That's no longer true. The US used to use "first to invent" to determine patent rights, but it was changed to "first to file" in 2013. It's no longer necessary to prove when you first invented something, it's now just a matter of checking filing dates. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_invent https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_i...
  - Tomte 3y ago
    It can still be useful to prove prior use, though. It doesn't invalidate the patent, if unpublished, but let's you keep using it.
deleted 3y ago
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zzo38computer 3y ago
I use computer and also write on paper a lot (I usually use a pencil rather than a pen, although some people prefer to use a pen). Writing on paper it can be done anywhere (and I commonly do in many places), and regardless of power outage, etc, and is also easier to give to someone else, than a computer (and do not have to worry about the incompatibility of computers, etc). I could also store them anywhere. Also for calendar, you can write it on a paper if you have a calendar on the wall; and, if you want to write notes on a paper next to something that it is relevant to (e.g. program numbers on a radio), then you can do that. Paper can also be reused (especially if you write on both sides) and recycled, and should be done more; even you might have spare paper that you can write notes, etc. They also mention package materials. I do think that reusable packaging materials would be better. (Reusable stuff is better in general.)
backtoyoujim 3y ago
Honestly, I didn't know that I was being asked to do so.
Avshalom 3y ago
Paper is enormous and extremely high resolution. Even a shitty printer has a higher dpi than almost any screen and you can do get an almost arbitrarily large print at that dpi instead of constantly losing density. that's why we all keep using it for maps.
- bovermyer 3y ago
  Well, also, you don't need to charge paper.
djha-skin 3y ago
There is more than simply preferential reasons to keep paper around. Some of them were touched on by the article: * Paper does not run out of battery. On a ship where you need to be able to navigate whether or not the computer fails, this is a feature. My brother-in-law tells a story of when he was an air traffic controller in the military. Every so often they told them they had to turn off their computers and navigate the pilots in the air using paper to make sure they knew how to do it in case the computers failed and the power turned off. * Paper cannot be hacked. In the article, Russian intelligence and MI5 were mentioned, as well as paper prescriptions. Of all highly secure mediums, paper is the most convenient. * Paper is just handy. I use it right now to print out knitting patterns and write notes on them. I don't have to find some app to annotate the pattern I can just write directly on the paper. For what it is, paper is the default because it is so fully featured.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Paper is difficult to hack. Typewriters, however, are a different story, and the Soviets managed to bug IBM Selectrics during the Cold War: <https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-crazy-story-of-how-soviet-russia-bugged-an-american-embassys-typewriters https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-crazy-story-of-how-soviet-russ...> Several related HN discussions: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16246432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16246432> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31965969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31965969> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774>
  - ddejohn 3y ago
    Absolutely fascinating. I found a link in one of the linked discussions which is quite a bit more in depth than the ieee article, for those interested: https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/ https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/
  - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
    The book mentions that at one point when they were investigating the chimney, the US operatives discovered a tunnel that extended past the embassy grounds. A team was doing a harrowing journey down the tunnel, uncertain of when they'd hit Soviet territory, and they got their sights on some Soviet operatives at the other end of the tunnel. Shortly after that the tunnel was mysteriously rendered inoperable by some sort of cave-in.
dotnet00 3y ago
Where does "digital paper" rank in this? Over the years I've gradually transitioned all my computing devices to be ones that support pressure sensitive stylus input. Most of my note taking thus ends up being handwritten, but still offering the benefits of digitization. For me it's the perfect compromise since I always have a device I can access all my years of notes on (although I don't tend to need to access them). With paper notes, I used to just throw them out every few months because they'd pile up and it was clear I wouldn't miss them.
analog31 3y ago
I suffer from not being able to read my own handwriting. So I prefer electronic notebooks (Jupyter) over paper for note taking. With three exceptions: 1. Drawing is laborious on a computer, and it rarely needs to be precise. It gives me eyestrain headaches and wrist fatigue. I still draw things like simple wiring schematics and flow diagrams by hand, take a pic with my phone, paste into Jupyter. 2. Sheet music. My kids have the latest tech (Apple 12" tablet, Apple pencil, page turning pedal) but I haven't upgraded yet. Also, the "charts" for one of my bands have not been digitized. Someday, but not yet. My notebook computer in tablet mode might be an option. 3 Meeting notes, just because I don't want to have a device in front of me when I'm having face-to-face discussions. The time is too precious.
- ioseph 3y ago
  The big one for me with sheet music is being able to add notes, scribble, etc. It would be way to slow in the middle of a rehearsal to take down some direction from the conductor on a tablet
fragmede 3y ago
Not to sound like an ad, but I really like my Remarkable 2. It's basically a digital piece of paper.
- hyperliner 3y ago
  [dead]
thsksbd 3y ago
Paper is real, so it is uninhibited by the limitations imposed by the imagination of the programer. For note taking, with a pen I cam easily transcribe math formulas. I cant do that with a txt editor. Ok, so I switch to org-mode and become a tex mode guru. There's still no easy way to make a geometric drawing. So now I have a tablet. The stylus feels weird, the tablet heavy. The resolution much lower than paper, the GUI, the battery life abysmal compared to paper, the latency anodyne. But sure, it does everything paper can do. ... that is until I crease the paper to make a geometric figure freed from the limitations of compass and straight edge constructions, a cube [1], a crane to flirt with my neighbor, a bottle opener [2], a makeshift knife [3] or to use as kindling. [1] I've actually done this to help me visualize crystal structure's interstitials. [2] Neat trick a frenchman taught me. [3] really sucks at this, but I did slice an apple with a sheet of printer paper once
bvan 3y ago
Today, I had to create a couple of handwritten reference index cards. Went to the trouble of finding a ruler (remember those things?) to cleanly underline my headings. It was a wonderful feeling.
j45 3y ago
This article seems a little out of touch. Paper doesn’t need to go away or be given up. Some uses of it would be better digital. Digital can’t do everything nor would it be able to handle everything in every way. I might use paper less, but writing is still invaluable.
Cyphase 3y ago
We should be sure to distinguish "paper vs. digital" (the question of storage technology, I suppose?) and "tablet(paper)/pen(pen) vs. touchscreen/finger vs. keyboard/mouse" (the kind of interface). Typewriters are paper tech. Drawing tablets are digital. Large physical keyboards can be used with paper (typewriters) or digital (computers). How different from a piece of paper and a pen is a digital tablet device with a blank canvas that you draw on with a stylus? In what ways? Just some thoughts.
davchana 3y ago
Finally, my hoard of 200+ new journals (bought from Walmart, Ross, Amazon, AliExpress, Temu, 1 at a time over the period of 3 years) will come to use :)
sasaf5 3y ago
The writing tool affects the choice of words and, by extension, the thought itself. With a pencil you can rest the tip on the paper and you can erase its traces, but it has lateral drag and requires some downward force. The fountain pen requires no force, but you can't rest it on paper or it makes a huge blotch. You can't even leave it uncaped for very long, so it kinda forces you to be writing. The computer allows searching, copying and pasting, but every minor alteration in font or typeface requires cooperation from the software.
demondemidi 3y ago
Huh? I go through a half-dozen engineering pads a year. Even twentysomething new-hires at my site use them. No GUI can keep up, yet. And this comes from someone who loves to draw with Procreate on my iPad.
bane 3y ago
I have a friend who's really into wargames, and I don't mean Catan or Risk. When he moved into his current house he dedicated about 1500 sq ft of his basement (he has a large house) to this hobby where he and his other wargamers will spend months playing a game on a huge map with thousands of pieces - a turn might take several days. While there are digital versions of this, nothing really matches the broad awareness of the field like just having the 2 meter by 3 meter map stretched out on the play space with all the pieces mid-game. Monitors feel like looking at the world through a straw in this context and the tactile ability to pick up pieces and try out scenarios can't be replicated with a mouse or even touchscreen. Any technological solution would have to be able to display such a large piece of paper without scrolling, at retina display levels of quality. The closest technology I've seen that sort of "got it" was the early Microsoft cocktail table where you could put phones and controls and such on the screen directly. From those early concept ideas we ended up with the Surface Studio and dial I guess, but it's not a 2x3m retina display with thousands of game pieces, sometimes stacked.
ChatGTP 3y ago
Does anyone use a paper day planner ? I gave mine up and tried to go digital, but I just haven't found anything I like. Google Cal has been ok, but I hate the way I had to maintain a personal and private version of my planner. I was worried if I got laid off I'd lose access to my stuff. This is basically a concern with any planning software for me. The app turns to shit or the company goes bust and that's it. I have to invent some new way of managing my time. Even with my iPad Pro + Pencil, I'm not satisfied yet. I still find just writing a comma cumbersome on the iPad pro. I'm going to buy a paper day planner again because I've never been so unorganized since I quit the paper planner. I feel kind of guilty because I'm not taking advantage of all the amazing modern cloud, AI crazy amazing tech to plan my life...
galleywest200 3y ago
I have had sweaty hands my entire life. Pen and paper can be frustrating when your paper gets soaked and you cannot write on it any longer, the ink smears from your hands, etc. I don't want to wear a glove every time I want to write something. For designing something I will take the time to physically draw it, but for any notes I need to be able to access regularly I will use a digital version.
langsoul-com 3y ago
I wonder why things have gotten so very black and white. There's digital, but God forbid if paper still is around. It's like we cannot stomach multiple ways of doing things, it has to be the "right" way. Perhaps because it's so much easier to have an opinion and have that broadcasted.
PM_me_your_math 3y ago
[dead]
VyseofArcadia 3y ago
> When will they scrunch up and toss away the last page? When you pry it from my cold, dead hands. Paper is a tool and a good one. It is simple, flexible, and most of all reliable. You'd be laughed out of the room for suggesting that Wi-Fi connected e-hammers [0] are the way of the future, and when will the last old fogeys finally get with the times and throw away their old dumb hammer? [0] I mean is it really even hammering without an oled screen that shows you how much force you're swinging with? And don't forget about the proprietary app that graphs your hammer swings for you. The light glaze of gamification (try for the biggest force!) will distract you from the personal data it's hoovering up to sell. Yes it definitely needs your precise location for Home Depot Hammer Hard Coupon Rewards (TM).
tapanjk 3y ago
Going through the comments, it feels like this topic is for people in tech what "physicians prefer to die at home" is for physicians. Knowing the inner workings of a system perhaps makes us avoid it?
travanx 3y ago
We do Civil Engineering and I have stacks of notebooks of calculations and decided I wanted to try using an ipad and stylus. Using Goodnotes, I can organize by job and create a new notebook for each plan check by date. Really enjoying not using a notebook every year as the paperwork was just getting out of hand, plus much more organized. I still use an RPN calculator, but slowly switching to spreadsheets. In this case digital works a lot better for me. For archiving, some cities still have pen drafted mylar that sits in vaults. If you want to revise plans, go to City, check out the mylar with your life, use a razor blade to edit, pen with permanent ink and send back into the vault. New plans are plotted, but still to mylar. With kids I am curious if they will learn how to handwrite. Will schools even teach how to read handwriting? Some interesting stuff as more goes digital and type printed. Pen, Pencil, paper still has very great uses.
forgotmypw17 3y ago
For me, paper helps a lot with proofreading. I can proofread on the screen all day, but the best edits happen once I print it out and start using a pen. I generally go through several iterations of this before a paper or story is done.
roryisok 3y ago
> real paper made from trees is still considered crucial to countless businesses and government systems globally, despite the environmental impact of producing it. For decades, computers, smartphones and tablets have provided an alternative. Is the impact of printing a paper navigational chart really higher than replacing that chart with an electronic device?
xxxxx12345 3y ago
Advantages of paper: 1. To increase size, use bigger sheet 2. To see two pages side by side, just put them side by side 3. To zoom in, bring closer, with no side effects 4. Mix and match all kinds of paper to make a book, no compatibility issues 5. Use pen/pencil for both text and diagrams

143 points by luigi23 3y ago

... the entire Germany in the most comprehensive and pervading (bureaucratic process integration kind of way) that is conceivable for a human being in 21st century. Germany. https://www.dw.com/en/germans-use-more-paper-than-any-other-g20-country/a-50709033 https://www.dw.com/en/germans-use-more-paper-than-any-other-...

dzonga 3y ago

I support paper notebooks compared to the e-forms. I can bet a notes written today in a paper notebook - would be accessible 200+ years from now. compared to notes written in some notebook app. whether inaccessibility is due to data damage, lost passwords etc. whereas with a notebook as long as it's not damaged by fire. it should be good. also invest in waterproof paper notebooks i.e stone-paper.

FalconSensei 3y ago
> I can bet a notes written today in a paper notebook - would be accessible 200+ years from now. compared to notes written in some notebook app I think it's the opposite, at least if you use obsidian or just md files. With paper notes, they can get lost more easily, there are no backups. In many countries, termites are a real problem (tell that to my damaged comic books and magic cards). If you use md files (which are just text files) + git/cloud/external drive backups, you are unlikely to lose them
- amerine 3y ago
  I think you are severely underestimating the complexity of preserving digital data for 200+ years. It’s not trivial, but a family could totally put a box of notebooks and loose papers in a box in a dry/somewhat safe location and pretty much guarantee they will still be usable/viewable in 200+ years without any electricity/file format/solar flare/emp/etc/etc issues to have to consider. I’m not disagreeing that it’s wonderful to be able to make multiple backups, offsite storage, etc of digital data, I’m just making sure you understand how difficult it is to keep digital data stored long term without significant attention to that desire. Dropping some markdown in git is not a long-term (using 200 yrs as my example) plan. I spent years and years working in a newspaper publisher trying to preserve the output digitally and it required serious investment (network storage, auto backup to LTO tapes, and verifying recovery is possible years later). It was and almost always is easier to ship two or three copies of the physical paper to separate storage facilities. I had to remind folks countless times that things like a dvd-r or cd-r have a maximal lifetime where we can trust that the data is retrievable. Maybe long term storage of personal data will have some future breakthroughs that make it dead simple to trust they can be viewable in 200+ years but today that’s not the case. I will say that most personal data (sans photos imo) isn’t useful after a few years (maybe 10+) and digital options are great for that. But for stuff we want to keep for centuries, it’s extremely hard and expensive today.
  - FalconSensei 3y ago
    > I think you are severely underestimating the complexity of preserving digital data for 200+ years although I doubt my personal notes will be necessary in 200+ years
    - amerine 3y ago
      Big same. It might be a curiosity to my kids (or grandkids if I have those) but I doubt anyone beyond that will care
      - allturtles 3y ago
        Your personal notes are probably not significant in and of themselves, but historians will certainly care if no one's personal notes from today are preserved 200 years from now.
    - jackthetab 3y ago
      _Ea-nasir enters the chat_
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Most paper will not last 200 years in a normal climate. The acid treatment often used ensures it will break down in less than that. Sure if you actually have a dry climate and archival grade paper it can last thousands of years. However most of us don't have that. However most of us don't need that either. There are very few things you care about. I threw my kindergarten art out long ago when I realized I wasn't interested in seeing how I improved (back then I thought it would be cool to look back and see). There are things I have done I will care about, but not too many.
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  I recently moved and was going through boxes of stuff I had accumulated. In one of the boxes, I have notebooks from over 20 years ago. There is also a hard drive with an IDE connection on it packed around the same time. The papers were ever so slightly degraded, but immediately completely readable. I no longer have the hardware to read the hard drive (though, yes, I’m sure I can find some online or at a garage sale). This box of materials has now gone through at least ten moves with me. My money is, generally, on physical media.
- jjav 3y ago
  > git/cloud/external drive backups, you are unlikely to lose them I can guarantee with total certainty that github & cloudprovider & your external drives will not exist in 200 years. Probably not even in 50. If you want to leave anything at all (photos, documents) for your grandchildren to see, how would you do it?
  - deafpolygon 3y ago
    How Gen A does it; cloud drive shared to your kids.
    - jjav 3y ago
      Right, which will go away as soon as cloudservice discontinues that feature or the company disappears. That is far from a long-term solution.
      - deafpolygon 3y ago
        I don't disagree. What is the alternative? Locking them up on a disk that can't be accessed cross-platform? Self-hosting doesn't solve the "if you're hit by the bus" problem unless the next generation of your family is well-versed in technology.
        jjav 3y ago
        The alternative is in the title of this topic. For things that you truly want to preserve for generations, have them printed out to good quality paper.
  - FalconSensei 3y ago
    > I can guarantee with total certainty that github & cloudprovider & your external drives will not exist in 200 years. Probably not even in 50. tell me you don't know how doing backups work without telling me your don't know how doing backups work
    - 3y ago
- twobitshifter 3y ago
  I’m trying to imagine a future where historians pour over modern day Leonardo’s markdown files.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
>I can bet a notes written today in a paper notebook - would be accessible 200+ years from now. I bet if you got a sheet of granite and chiseled them into the granite, they would have a far better chance of surviving that a paper notebook.

netbioserror 3y ago

When it comes to tabletop gaming, I strongly prefer handwritten force lists and character sheets. Printed is okay, so long as they can be marked and modified on the fly with a pencil. Requiring someone to fiddle with a poorly-designed app to record momentary bookkeeping is downright obnoxious and will not stand for it.

hinkley 3y ago
I’ve seen some people use dry erase for consumables. I’ve also seen little magnets which would be cleaner.

zubairq 3y ago

I’m a developer and I still rely on paper to do some of my best work

jebarker 3y ago
Likewise. I've never found anything as effective as a pencil and paper as a scratchpad when thinking through problems. I also find a strange motivation day to day in checking items off a physical checklist/todo-list that I don't get from the digital equivalent. However, digital is indisputable king when it comes to sharing information.
gwervc 3y ago
Same here, and when I was a grad student (phd) I used to write most important sections of a paper on paper.
dboreham 3y ago
I've found that today's pen/tablet experience is pretty close to paper, with the added benefit that I can't lose the work and I can easily share it. Surface Pro X for me, but the larger iPads probably work as well for this.

_moof 3y ago

For me personally paper is indispensable as a design tool for sketching out complex systems. I "think" more clearly on paper than I do with any digital tool I've used. In an aviation context I mostly use an iPad these days (learned to fly long before iPads were a thing) but I carry some backup paper charts. I've had chargers fail mid-trip and the electronic flight bag apps are real power hogs. And that's not to mention the ever-present threat of GPS failure, which is very real.

histriosum 3y ago
I'm always fascinated with the folks who still carry paper sectionals.. at any given time in the cockpit Ive got three digital sources of charts that would have to fail, not counting whatever onboard gps I'm flying behind (primary tablet, backup tablet, phone).. I just can't find the point in carrying paper anymore, at least for my risk matrix.. Re: GPS failure, that's orthogonal to the paper argument, since paper doesn't provide GPS either.. I personally am looking forward to the day when paper charts stop being printed! Huge waste of resources that could be better allocated..
- _moof 3y ago
  "Paper doesn't provide GPS" - spoken like a child of the magenta line! ;) Paper provides the VOR frequencies and visual navigation info, and approach procedures if you're really in a bind. It's also cheaper than a second tablet.
  - histriosum 3y ago
    I'm not sure if you're intentionally misreading my comment. It was in reply to your statement that GPS failure was a "real concern". I simply noted that GPS failure is orthogonal to the paper discussion. I'm quite happy to use pilotage to navigate, but lugging four sectionals around is a waste of my time and a waste of the FAAs resources to print. My state won the "let's see how annoying we can make these sectional divisions" contest. Just my local flying area is split onto three charts.
- dogman144 3y ago

mmphosis 3y ago

As much as using a phone with nav software and a dedicated plotter is easier to use—when everything breaks, and it will, I rely on paper charts when sailing.

no_one_ever 3y ago

I did all of my note-taking on paper in school. I felt like I had to to keep up with complex visualizations and concepts. The habit has carried with me. I still keep those notebooks for reflection on what I studied. They're very valuable to me, even though I get teased for it. To me, it is like looking at a photograph of your younger brain.

gspencley 3y ago

I've worked in tech as a software engineer developing web applications for 25 years and I'm one of these people. For note taking, I prefer pen and paper. For diagramming and brainstorming, I prefer a physical whiteboard. For non-work related scheduling, I prefer marking things on the physical calendar hanging on my wall... or sometimes I'll reach for a post-it note. For bills, I prefer that my company mail me a paper bill. Especially if accessing the e-bill requires me to have an account with a web app and enable MFA and change my password every 90 days and always have Okta give me problems when I want to check my bill and thus need to jump through these hoops those whopping 12 times per year that I need this information. Maybe it's because I see how the sausage is made. Maybe it's because I use some sort of eletronic device all day for work. But the last thing I want to do when I need to jot something down quickly is reach for a phone or a laptop. Heck, most of the time I don't even remember (or care) where I left my phone.

sixstringtheory 3y ago
Same, iOS developer here. Maybe if software were treated less like fashion that had to constantly be updated, resulting in a neverending revolving door of bugs and new waves of learning curves, and instead like a focused tool, it could catch up more to paper. There are absolutely benefits to software over paper but they feel hamstrung by the constant desire to roll out the next UI paradigm. Sooner or later the set of constraints between device, OS and app versions forces an upgrade. Security updates should be the only reason to even hint at that possibility IMO. Maybe I’m just too close to the problem. If I squint enough I can see how a pen running out of ink is like an app crash, and replacing the pen/ink has a real, nonzero environmental cost. I’m not sure how to amortize the costs of device manufacture and software development across all bugs, and compare that to the costs/benefits of pen and paper. There is some shade of rose on my glasses, no doubt. I need more information, but I sense it’s not the kind of information that is important to many people, and especially corporations, to gather.
- galdosdi 3y ago
  > If I squint enough I can see how a pen running out of ink is like an app crash Interesting analogy. I think a closer analogy to a pen running out of ink and having to grab another pen, is a laptop battery running low and having to be plugged in.

mongol 3y ago

My poor handwriting is something I am disappointed in myself with. I knew how to write quite well, but that skill went to shreds in university when I tried to write too much, too fast. My hand started to repulse the pen. It is as if it always wants to let go of it and only with mental force can be made to hold on and scribble some ugly notes in protest. If I slow down I can write prettier, but I don't have patience to write slowly.

karaterobot 3y ago

> Paper, it seems, still rules the waves. You'd be crazy to get rid of paper charts on a boat, for the same reason any hiker is instructed to carry a paper map, and the smart ones actually do it. Yeah, the primary system will be GPS, but that system requires a lot of things to be functioning which may not always be functioning. You need a backup, and paper is perfect for that.

ghaff 3y ago
There are a ton of situations where it’s really a good idea to have a paper backup. Traveling, especially internationally, and you lose your phone in a taxi? Do you know your itinerary and where you’re staying? I’m not religious about it for simple trips where I know where I’m staying but I definitely make a printout for anything more complex—but I bet a lot of people don’t.
- davchana 3y ago
  I was on my first travel trip to Rome, and dropped my phone & damaged it at Amsterdam airport while trying to charge it. All maps, instructions, how to reach hotel, public transportation help, everything was in that phone. God helped & Rome airport had public computer terminals at airport. Found some scrap paper, & drew the general directions to hotel.
  - dboreham 3y ago
    I always carry my (N-1)th phone in my suitcase in case of such an event.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      Or for those with true tourist savvy, carry (N-1)th phone as primary in pickpocket public, and your current, flashy, expensive device is your backup instead.
      - ghaff 3y ago

PumpkinSpice 3y ago

It's fairly clear that paper is being driven out of most white collar settings. It's still invaluable in many blue collar jobs. Phones don't work all that well when you're wearing work gloves, ports get clogged with debris, screens crack when you're crawling through narrow openings or pushing heavy stuff. I have pencils and post-its in my electronics lab and I use them when working on digital circuits.

tivert 3y ago

People have been trained to fetishize "new" technology and dump on "old" technology. Frankly put: new is not always better. A technology is just a technology, and "new" technologies almost always introduce regressions along with whatever benefits the they bring. For instance: paper documents are generally more robust/reliable (as a practical matter), easily attached to physical items, and easier to annotate than any kind of digital document. Digital input methods are usually pretty awful, especially when you don't have the luxury of fumbling around for a few seconds (or more) with each input. IMHO, any reasonable-aware tech professional should be able to understand that. Especially given how frequently computer technology objectively sucks.

eternityforest 3y ago
I think paper probably really does have value for mental retention, but digital is so convenient it's easy to totally forget paper is a thing. Paper is easier to annotate, but if you didn't grow up with lots of paper, you don't notice, because annotating isn't something you think about, you mostly think in terms of quoting and leaving a comment. The medium shapes your thinking, and the stuff that's hard to do on paper doesn't really occur to you as something you'd want to do, unless you're deeply familiar with it. Just like any technology. Perhaps that's the big benefit, adding more variety of ways of thinking.
- tivert 3y ago
  > Paper is easier to annotate, but if you didn't grow up with lots of paper, you don't notice, because annotating isn't something you think about, you mostly think in terms of quoting and leaving a comment. In other words, people can be fine with worse because they don't know better. One of the things that should be a deep embarrassment to the technology industry is its failure to replicate some of the strengths of paper and make them ubiquitous across platforms. Things actually seem to be settling for a lowest-common-denominator that's getting ever lower (e.g. people regularly resort to screenshotting text in 2023). > Perhaps that's the big benefit, adding more variety of ways of thinking. One of the strengths of paper is its flexibility: you can make pretty much any mark you want, not just marks approved and implemented by some 3rd party. You seem to be describing a situation where technical limitations (of digital systems) are so ingrained in people's thought processes that they have trouble thinking outside the little box they've been given.

agumonkey 3y ago

for everybody still on physical medium (be it paper, board, whatever), did you try to leverage digital tools thinking it would allow wider expressiveness, faster iteration, more precision and yet came back to paper ? if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working)

gspencley 3y ago
> if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working) There is some of that. But pen and paper has other benefits that are hard to match: - Pen & Paper works even if there is a service disruption / outage - Pen & Paper works even if the device's battery dies or the power goes out - Pen & Paper is fast. I don't need to unlock the screen, I don't experience progressive sluggishness due to memory leaks, analytics / telemetry running in the background or feature/library bloat - Pen & Paper doesn't send everything that I'm writing to some remote server for analytics purposes - Pen & Paper has never crashed on me - I get to decide if and when I want the newest version of pen/paper. I don't ever reach for Pen & Paper to discover that some product owner has pushed a change on me without my opt-in / consent. - Pen & Paper works in virtually every envrionment, regardless of whether I'm wearing gloves or my hands are cold (though admittedly cold hands can slow down the writing process, but much less so than trying to use a touch-screen or keyboard). - Pen & Paper is often easier to read (assuming the hand-writing is legible, which is admittedly hit or miss, but it causes much less eye fatigue than staring at a screen). - Pen & Paper doesn't distract me with spell/grammar checks that I don't need in the moment. Disabling / re-enabling these features is time consuming. - Pen & Paper is a technology that has truly stood the test of time. The fact that it continues to persist into the digital age is very telling. Sometimes "simple & works" beats new and featureful but complicated.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

stronglikedan 3y ago

Another paper user checking in. I even have two different types of pads. One with thin paper for taking notes in meetings and such, since they will be deciphered to better paper later, and the thin paper will be recycled. One for more robust paper to which said notes will be deciphered and arranged, which is also used for real work. Plus I find it very hard to read from screens, even e-ink, so I tend to print things out if it's going to be a long read.

TheCapeGreek 3y ago

Sometimes I want to get more into paper, so I have an excuse to buy pretty notebooks. I do that about once a year and never end up using it right now. Secondarily, hearing about our risks of EMPs from solar flares (or even in war scenarios), or in case of electrical grid collapse (a not-impossible scenario in some countries), paper is the only way I'll have survival knowledge available to me.

foobarian 3y ago
My favorite indulgence is high quality thesis-like paper. Archival quality, with nice cotton fibers. Pair with some nice ink nibs or fountain pens... ahhh
- ramses0 3y ago
  Look for a ream of short-grain (bookbinding) paper. Other option is a ream or stack of 11x17 and have it yourself. Even a bit thinner it tends to be nice for writing.

V__ 3y ago

One of the great festures of using paper is, that it exists physically. I can see my stack of to-dos or bills or notes and this also helps remembeing where what what is. I don't have this experience using digital. My brain just remembers computer as the general location. I loose all spacial intuition. On the other side, this is great for anything I don't want to remember.

pimlottc 3y ago
This is an actual problem in government modernization projects. When legacy paper-based systems get overburdened, it's impossible not to notice growing stacks of file folders everywhere: on desks, on carts, in file cabinets, on shelves, in storerooms and storage facilities. But when the new digital systems back up, it's invisible. What's a few hundred thousand rows to a modern database?
dboreham 3y ago
I also like the spatial context, but tend to misplace paper. Suggest to try using multiple desktops: one for work project A, another for personal email, etc. Open a browser tab or text editor window on the top left of each desktop with a note about what this one is for. In the case of work projects that tab will often be the bug report covering the task at hand. This way when I get defocused, it's a simple process to tab between the desktops, reading the index tab to reacquire wtf this screen was for.
- V__ 3y ago
  Thanks for the suggestions. Somehow, I never thought about using virtual desktops, but it sounds intriguing.

jimmaswell 3y ago

I've been writing some assembly, learning ED, and some other things on my Kaypro 1. I write notes on paper from the reference material on my desktop then go over to the Kaypro to apply it. Seems to work really well for learning and brings back memories of college classes.

m1n1 3y ago

A professor once gave me a demo of a printer that could erase its own work and print a new image on the same regular printer paper. In between the two prints he let me mark the page however I wanted so I could be sure it was the same physical page coming back out. He admitted there was no market for such a thing but it was cool to see anyways. This was in the mid 1990s

dogman144 3y ago

Really dislike the “give up” terminology and related digital nudging in group/out group. Just like I can’t give up: - paperless billing bc I’d like ironclad proof I’ve paid my mortgage off and have experienced plenty of database failures - driving without an insurance black box plugged into my car for a few % off my insurance - cash because it saves the small business a few % points and I’ve (/s) never seen a POS crash and burn before - paper maps bc you’re completely insane to do outdoors stuff without a paper map and analog compass. When you have the emergency that needs it, you’ll understand. The best success IT has had is convincing the world that the digital metaphor is as good, No… better! A total replacement! Stop killing the environment paper-man! … than the analog thing. I have no idea how you can work in and around technology and have this mindset. I get sketched flying on software-defined airplanes these days even. If the scheduling software falls over under load.. I’m sure that implies every other airline software is A+!

didntcheck 3y ago
The notion that paper letters are more authentic than digital has always confused me. If you can forge a realistic-looking PDF, you can also print it. On the other hand, an email still on Gmail's servers with headers showing its authenticated origin, or a document held in escrow by Docusign, seems like far more rigorous evidence in a hypothetical court dispute. And I'd have my bank statements as corroborating evidence, rather than relying on one company Ideally, companies would have well-known public keys and sign every PDF they send you. In practice, they don't, but it's not even (feasibly) possible to sign a paper letter, unless we're still counting a printed squiggle as some sort of proof. Holograms and other genuinely hard-to-print marks are presumably very effective against non-sophisticated forgers, but I only see them on a few government documents, not mortgage papers Also I'm aware that printers print identifying dots, and that is probably the downfall of many amateur forgers, but only because it allows you to find a smoking gun if the document is forged (and the printer was suspected a priori). But I imagine it's a lot harder to use that in the other direction, where a customer wants to prove a document did come from some company, as they'll presumably struggle to get their hands on the signatures of all the company's printers
- 3y ago

qingcharles 3y ago

Most courts in the country have laws mandating electronic submissions for all documents. They all have to have an exception in the statute for prisoners as they are stuck using paper for everything.

helf 3y ago

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eternityforest 3y ago

I like the idea of paper. It's got some pretty cool uses. Sometimes I think I probably should use it more. Most of my favorite works of art, buildings I've enjoyed being in, an even a lot of tech had their beginnings on a page. But it's never something I just casually reach for, the thought of using physical media just doesn't really ever occur to me unless I'm specifically going out of my way. Digital is so much easier, no fighting your hands to make the letters readable, no worrying about losing anything, no need to physically sort things, no need to have dedicated space and time for it thanks to the portability and durability of the screen. The UI changes, apps go obsolete, but keeping up is just a matter of stuff you can learn on a random blog, not stuff that requires the long, hard process of figuring out how to translate thoughts into spatial patterns, which nobody can even describe really. It seems like using paper at least occasionally is probably a good idea. It's definitely gotten easier now that we have cheap space pens and A5 format binders that are a little more convenient than full pages.

all2 3y ago
I think differently on paper. For some reason my entire mode of reasoning shifts and the way I process information becomes different. Could I write the same thing in Vim? Sure. But for some reason paper makes my thoughts more careful, more substantial, as if the input latency gives me time to think.

Decabytes 3y ago

Too be fair I don't think the anti-paper crowd are talking about me. The amount of paper I consume is minuscule compared to large businesses. I use paper a lot more than the average person. I make paper from recycled junk mail, and I hand write all of my notes. I retain things better when I write them down on paper. I also look at screens for 12 hours a day so staring at a piece of paper is a reprieve. My only concern with moving entirely to digital is that it is not strictly better. Digital should be the best way to consume media but it often isn't. I don't own the digital media like I do with physical media. Buying brand new digital media is also waaay more expensive then getting used books on Ebay. This is all on top of the fact that we can barely keep services around for more than 10 years without them going away and being stuck with proprietary formats that are not accessible anymore. I am concerned for the day where everything is all digital, and then something catastrophic happens and we lose a significant chunk of our information. But maybe I'm just giving myself FUD

nottheengineer 3y ago

Paper has two objective advantages over digital: It's reliable and it doesn't scale. That makes it the only option for elections as any compromise of a digital system would instantly decide the outcome. With paper, a bag of ballots might be lost or a few fake ones introduced, but none of these attacks scale very well so if we can prevent most of them, that's good enough. I won't touch on preferring paper for visualizing thoughts because that's just preference, but seeing people prefer paper invoices over digital ones is just sad to see. On a conceptual level digital should always be preferrable, but we somehow managed to screw the inplementation up so bad that it's worse than no implementation. Why do we need to overcomplicate everything?

ilamont 3y ago

MIT is starting up a design center to be located in the old Metropolitan Warehouse. One of the directors on the engineering faculty has done a lot of research on how designers work, especially early stage design. When the center was profiled in Tech Review last year, she noted that sketching (including on paper) still has a role to play: Among other things, Yang has found that the very existence of those visual representations matters greatly: designers who do even basic, preliminary sketching consistently generate more design ideas. As she and a coauthor wrote in a 2007 paper, there is “an important interplay between a designer’s ability to sketch and their ability to visualize in their heads or through prototypes.” She has even found that if designers aren’t highly skilled at drawing, that doesn’t affect the quality of their final design outcomes; it just matters that they draw at all. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1063906/design-central/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1063906/design-c... Whiteboarding also falls into this realm ... not paper, but it enables the act of sketching without a digital intermediary.

gorgoiler 3y ago

Bound lab books with printed numbers on the pages are, I am led to believe, at the forefront of any technical defence of a patent or discovery. You just can’t fake ‘em. This is why I record all my ideas in a lab journal — a cargo cult it may be but we’ll see who’s laughing when I finally invent homomorphic encryption / perpetual motion / alchemy!

throwaway87651 3y ago
That's no longer true. The US used to use "first to invent" to determine patent rights, but it was changed to "first to file" in 2013. It's no longer necessary to prove when you first invented something, it's now just a matter of checking filing dates. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_invent https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_i...
- Tomte 3y ago
  It can still be useful to prove prior use, though. It doesn't invalidate the patent, if unpublished, but let's you keep using it.

deleted 3y ago

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zzo38computer 3y ago

I use computer and also write on paper a lot (I usually use a pencil rather than a pen, although some people prefer to use a pen). Writing on paper it can be done anywhere (and I commonly do in many places), and regardless of power outage, etc, and is also easier to give to someone else, than a computer (and do not have to worry about the incompatibility of computers, etc). I could also store them anywhere. Also for calendar, you can write it on a paper if you have a calendar on the wall; and, if you want to write notes on a paper next to something that it is relevant to (e.g. program numbers on a radio), then you can do that. Paper can also be reused (especially if you write on both sides) and recycled, and should be done more; even you might have spare paper that you can write notes, etc. They also mention package materials. I do think that reusable packaging materials would be better. (Reusable stuff is better in general.)

backtoyoujim 3y ago

Honestly, I didn't know that I was being asked to do so.

Avshalom 3y ago

Paper is enormous and extremely high resolution. Even a shitty printer has a higher dpi than almost any screen and you can do get an almost arbitrarily large print at that dpi instead of constantly losing density. that's why we all keep using it for maps.

bovermyer 3y ago
Well, also, you don't need to charge paper.

djha-skin 3y ago

There is more than simply preferential reasons to keep paper around. Some of them were touched on by the article: * Paper does not run out of battery. On a ship where you need to be able to navigate whether or not the computer fails, this is a feature. My brother-in-law tells a story of when he was an air traffic controller in the military. Every so often they told them they had to turn off their computers and navigate the pilots in the air using paper to make sure they knew how to do it in case the computers failed and the power turned off. * Paper cannot be hacked. In the article, Russian intelligence and MI5 were mentioned, as well as paper prescriptions. Of all highly secure mediums, paper is the most convenient. * Paper is just handy. I use it right now to print out knitting patterns and write notes on them. I don't have to find some app to annotate the pattern I can just write directly on the paper. For what it is, paper is the default because it is so fully featured.

dredmorbius 3y ago
Paper is difficult to hack. Typewriters, however, are a different story, and the Soviets managed to bug IBM Selectrics during the Cold War: <https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-crazy-story-of-how-soviet-russia-bugged-an-american-embassys-typewriters https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-crazy-story-of-how-soviet-russ...> Several related HN discussions: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16246432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16246432> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31965969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31965969> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774>
- ddejohn 3y ago
  Absolutely fascinating. I found a link in one of the linked discussions which is quite a bit more in depth than the ieee article, for those interested: https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/ https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  The book mentions that at one point when they were investigating the chimney, the US operatives discovered a tunnel that extended past the embassy grounds. A team was doing a harrowing journey down the tunnel, uncertain of when they'd hit Soviet territory, and they got their sights on some Soviet operatives at the other end of the tunnel. Shortly after that the tunnel was mysteriously rendered inoperable by some sort of cave-in.

dotnet00 3y ago

Where does "digital paper" rank in this? Over the years I've gradually transitioned all my computing devices to be ones that support pressure sensitive stylus input. Most of my note taking thus ends up being handwritten, but still offering the benefits of digitization. For me it's the perfect compromise since I always have a device I can access all my years of notes on (although I don't tend to need to access them). With paper notes, I used to just throw them out every few months because they'd pile up and it was clear I wouldn't miss them.

analog31 3y ago

I suffer from not being able to read my own handwriting. So I prefer electronic notebooks (Jupyter) over paper for note taking. With three exceptions: 1. Drawing is laborious on a computer, and it rarely needs to be precise. It gives me eyestrain headaches and wrist fatigue. I still draw things like simple wiring schematics and flow diagrams by hand, take a pic with my phone, paste into Jupyter. 2. Sheet music. My kids have the latest tech (Apple 12" tablet, Apple pencil, page turning pedal) but I haven't upgraded yet. Also, the "charts" for one of my bands have not been digitized. Someday, but not yet. My notebook computer in tablet mode might be an option. 3 Meeting notes, just because I don't want to have a device in front of me when I'm having face-to-face discussions. The time is too precious.

ioseph 3y ago
The big one for me with sheet music is being able to add notes, scribble, etc. It would be way to slow in the middle of a rehearsal to take down some direction from the conductor on a tablet

fragmede 3y ago

Not to sound like an ad, but I really like my Remarkable 2. It's basically a digital piece of paper.

hyperliner 3y ago
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thsksbd 3y ago

Paper is real, so it is uninhibited by the limitations imposed by the imagination of the programer. For note taking, with a pen I cam easily transcribe math formulas. I cant do that with a txt editor. Ok, so I switch to org-mode and become a tex mode guru. There's still no easy way to make a geometric drawing. So now I have a tablet. The stylus feels weird, the tablet heavy. The resolution much lower than paper, the GUI, the battery life abysmal compared to paper, the latency anodyne. But sure, it does everything paper can do. ... that is until I crease the paper to make a geometric figure freed from the limitations of compass and straight edge constructions, a cube [1], a crane to flirt with my neighbor, a bottle opener [2], a makeshift knife [3] or to use as kindling. [1] I've actually done this to help me visualize crystal structure's interstitials. [2] Neat trick a frenchman taught me. [3] really sucks at this, but I did slice an apple with a sheet of printer paper once

bvan 3y ago

Today, I had to create a couple of handwritten reference index cards. Went to the trouble of finding a ruler (remember those things?) to cleanly underline my headings. It was a wonderful feeling.

j45 3y ago

This article seems a little out of touch. Paper doesn’t need to go away or be given up. Some uses of it would be better digital. Digital can’t do everything nor would it be able to handle everything in every way. I might use paper less, but writing is still invaluable.

Cyphase 3y ago

We should be sure to distinguish "paper vs. digital" (the question of storage technology, I suppose?) and "tablet(paper)/pen(pen) vs. touchscreen/finger vs. keyboard/mouse" (the kind of interface). Typewriters are paper tech. Drawing tablets are digital. Large physical keyboards can be used with paper (typewriters) or digital (computers). How different from a piece of paper and a pen is a digital tablet device with a blank canvas that you draw on with a stylus? In what ways? Just some thoughts.

davchana 3y ago

Finally, my hoard of 200+ new journals (bought from Walmart, Ross, Amazon, AliExpress, Temu, 1 at a time over the period of 3 years) will come to use :)

sasaf5 3y ago

The writing tool affects the choice of words and, by extension, the thought itself. With a pencil you can rest the tip on the paper and you can erase its traces, but it has lateral drag and requires some downward force. The fountain pen requires no force, but you can't rest it on paper or it makes a huge blotch. You can't even leave it uncaped for very long, so it kinda forces you to be writing. The computer allows searching, copying and pasting, but every minor alteration in font or typeface requires cooperation from the software.

demondemidi 3y ago

Huh? I go through a half-dozen engineering pads a year. Even twentysomething new-hires at my site use them. No GUI can keep up, yet. And this comes from someone who loves to draw with Procreate on my iPad.

bane 3y ago

I have a friend who's really into wargames, and I don't mean Catan or Risk. When he moved into his current house he dedicated about 1500 sq ft of his basement (he has a large house) to this hobby where he and his other wargamers will spend months playing a game on a huge map with thousands of pieces - a turn might take several days. While there are digital versions of this, nothing really matches the broad awareness of the field like just having the 2 meter by 3 meter map stretched out on the play space with all the pieces mid-game. Monitors feel like looking at the world through a straw in this context and the tactile ability to pick up pieces and try out scenarios can't be replicated with a mouse or even touchscreen. Any technological solution would have to be able to display such a large piece of paper without scrolling, at retina display levels of quality. The closest technology I've seen that sort of "got it" was the early Microsoft cocktail table where you could put phones and controls and such on the screen directly. From those early concept ideas we ended up with the Surface Studio and dial I guess, but it's not a 2x3m retina display with thousands of game pieces, sometimes stacked.

ChatGTP 3y ago

Does anyone use a paper day planner ? I gave mine up and tried to go digital, but I just haven't found anything I like. Google Cal has been ok, but I hate the way I had to maintain a personal and private version of my planner. I was worried if I got laid off I'd lose access to my stuff. This is basically a concern with any planning software for me. The app turns to shit or the company goes bust and that's it. I have to invent some new way of managing my time. Even with my iPad Pro + Pencil, I'm not satisfied yet. I still find just writing a comma cumbersome on the iPad pro. I'm going to buy a paper day planner again because I've never been so unorganized since I quit the paper planner. I feel kind of guilty because I'm not taking advantage of all the amazing modern cloud, AI crazy amazing tech to plan my life...

galleywest200 3y ago

I have had sweaty hands my entire life. Pen and paper can be frustrating when your paper gets soaked and you cannot write on it any longer, the ink smears from your hands, etc. I don't want to wear a glove every time I want to write something. For designing something I will take the time to physically draw it, but for any notes I need to be able to access regularly I will use a digital version.

langsoul-com 3y ago

I wonder why things have gotten so very black and white. There's digital, but God forbid if paper still is around. It's like we cannot stomach multiple ways of doing things, it has to be the "right" way. Perhaps because it's so much easier to have an opinion and have that broadcasted.

PM_me_your_math 3y ago

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VyseofArcadia 3y ago

> When will they scrunch up and toss away the last page? When you pry it from my cold, dead hands. Paper is a tool and a good one. It is simple, flexible, and most of all reliable. You'd be laughed out of the room for suggesting that Wi-Fi connected e-hammers [0] are the way of the future, and when will the last old fogeys finally get with the times and throw away their old dumb hammer? [0] I mean is it really even hammering without an oled screen that shows you how much force you're swinging with? And don't forget about the proprietary app that graphs your hammer swings for you. The light glaze of gamification (try for the biggest force!) will distract you from the personal data it's hoovering up to sell. Yes it definitely needs your precise location for Home Depot Hammer Hard Coupon Rewards (TM).

tapanjk 3y ago

Going through the comments, it feels like this topic is for people in tech what "physicians prefer to die at home" is for physicians. Knowing the inner workings of a system perhaps makes us avoid it?

travanx 3y ago

We do Civil Engineering and I have stacks of notebooks of calculations and decided I wanted to try using an ipad and stylus. Using Goodnotes, I can organize by job and create a new notebook for each plan check by date. Really enjoying not using a notebook every year as the paperwork was just getting out of hand, plus much more organized. I still use an RPN calculator, but slowly switching to spreadsheets. In this case digital works a lot better for me. For archiving, some cities still have pen drafted mylar that sits in vaults. If you want to revise plans, go to City, check out the mylar with your life, use a razor blade to edit, pen with permanent ink and send back into the vault. New plans are plotted, but still to mylar. With kids I am curious if they will learn how to handwrite. Will schools even teach how to read handwriting? Some interesting stuff as more goes digital and type printed. Pen, Pencil, paper still has very great uses.

forgotmypw17 3y ago

For me, paper helps a lot with proofreading. I can proofread on the screen all day, but the best edits happen once I print it out and start using a pen. I generally go through several iterations of this before a paper or story is done.

roryisok 3y ago

> real paper made from trees is still considered crucial to countless businesses and government systems globally, despite the environmental impact of producing it. For decades, computers, smartphones and tablets have provided an alternative. Is the impact of printing a paper navigational chart really higher than replacing that chart with an electronic device?

xxxxx12345 3y ago

Advantages of paper: 1. To increase size, use bigger sheet 2. To see two pages side by side, just put them side by side 3. To zoom in, bring closer, with no side effects 4. Mix and match all kinds of paper to make a book, no compatibility issues 5. Use pen/pencil for both text and diagrams