22 ms·

> The foremost distinction between LARPers and violent extremists is that genuine role players will not care whether others are watching. They may even embrace

> The foremost distinction between LARPers and violent extremists is that genuine role players will not care whether others are watching. They may even embrace third-party observation, such as nonplayer characters or a general audience. After all, LARP is a performance. > Conversely, violent extremists or terrorists want secrecy. This desire may contribute to the sense of clandestine excitement that surrounds them and their preparation on a pathway to actual violence.9 What is this? Why is the FBI writing stuff like this and publishing it?

Y_Y 3y ago
[flagged]
bediger4000 3y ago
Qanon. Anons use this kind of defense all the time, but the ideology itself continues to inspire violence.
- 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
  I've heard that there's a scattered body of (amateur?) scholarship analyzing QAnon as an ARG [1] that the "players" don't realize is fictional. I've only briefly dabbled in "playing" ARGs, so I'm far from an expert, but the dynamic does seem strikingly similar. A few people allegedly even believe that QAnon originated as a legitimate attempt at an amateur ARG and was then hijacked by real-world political interests, though I don't understand how the ARG would have worked given the venue and content of the original "Q drops". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_reality_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_reality_game
jeffbee 3y ago
"""The Bulletin provides a forum for information exchange throughout the criminal justice community. Readers consist mostly of midlevel to executive managers in agencies of various sizes worldwide."""
- Jensson 3y ago
  And those will now think that LARPers who want privacy are terrorists? I don't see how this is a good way to separate LARPing from terrorism. It is scary to think that law enforcement thinks that people who want privacy are terrorists.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    This article is about how to test the genuineness of claims of LARPing by people suspected of attempting to overthrow governments. If you don't have the precondition of armed bandits circling your seat of government, then the article is of no relevance.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - YeBanKo 3y ago
      The article is of relevance to anyone who is affected by criminal justice system. This is literally an article on how the law should be interpreted by federal law enforcement.
  - pests 3y ago
    This is not "find larpers, check privacy, find crime" Its "find crime, they claim larping, check behavior to verify"
    - Jensson 3y ago
      The whole point is to tell the difference between "find larpers" and "find crime", so the rest of those points doesn't say anything. They found some people who did something suspicious, that is point 1, the next step is this document to help tell the difference.
      - pests 3y ago
        That is what I said.
toasted-subs 3y ago
Lol I wouldn't mind secrecy because I'm a kinky person. Seems like the FBI has never learned to enjoy yourself. No body with a hot girlfriend and a jacuzzi is flying planes into buildings.
deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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parsimo2010 3y ago
Because they need to provide a reference for when FBI agents in the future have to decide of someone is harmless or not. While this is available publicly, the audience is mostly law enforcement officers and possibly prosecutors. Many law enforcement officers have no familiarity with fantasy hobbies or war reenactment. Pointing out that LARPers use fake weapons and operate in the open is a good thing to point out. It’s not obvious to everyone.
- Jensson 3y ago
  > Pointing out that LARPers use fake weapons and operate in the open is a good thing to point out So you think it is fine to investigate people who play around on their private property for terrorism just because they don't want you watching? To me that seems very scary and oppressive.
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    if they post images and such providing evidence that they're plotting and have real weapons, if they're plotting the assassination of Lincoln using fake civil war weapons not so much, one clear distinction is members of a larp would only ever talk about police and govt if a real legit LARPer were having some criminal issue valid or not. Terrorists will seem wary or apprehensive or even combative in regards to police and govt, and have real weapons involved. They might even mention on social media derogatory remarks towards actual living people, LARPers may trash talk at Lord Farquad of The kingdom of Shrek but that's not the same as plotting to kidnap a govt official.
  - parsimo2010 3y ago
    No, I think it’s good to know the difference between LARPers and terrorists so that the FBI doesn’t harass innocent people. It would suck if they were wasting their time spying on a LARP group because they thought they were actually committing violent acts.
_jal 3y ago
> Why is the FBI writing stuff like this and publishing it? Violent extremists use a variety of dodges to attempt to avoid accountability for their behavior. You've probably seen examples - it is very common to shout "false flag", claiming rivals impersonated them, for instance[1]. This is just another in a long line of those sorts of things. The FBI's remit includes investigating and arresting violent extremists. As such, they collect and disseminate information that assists with that goal. [1] Some of the same people also actually engage in "false flag" operations of their own - for instance, the "Boogaloo Boys" were responsible for violence and arson in Minnesota and murder in California during the George Floyd riots, which was initially misattributed to BLM-affiliated folks. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo...
adfgiionio 3y ago
TFA: >Violent and criminal actors, particularly those involved in a conspiracy, could potentially make false claims, explaining that they were merely LARPing and not intending to follow through with an attack. For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, he told the FBI he and his compatriots were only LARPing. Franks later pled guilty and testified that this was a lie.5 >Although the history of LARP as a legal defense is narrow, the authors share the concern that it may soon become commonplace. Early attempts at such a strategy have been made by a defendant acting alone6 or in loose cooperation with members of a fantasy group who knew each other only in the virtual world,7 claiming “artistic expression” to excuse threatening language.8
ajb 3y ago
Because rightly or wrongly, for serious violence the law considers not just the violence itself illegal, but also preparatory actions such as planning, sourcing weapons, etc. The bright line "when someone gets hurt" is too late, so analysis like this has to occur so that LARP can be distinguished from practicing before violent action, especially when the latter is claimed to be the former

Y_Y 3y ago

[flagged]

bediger4000 3y ago

Qanon. Anons use this kind of defense all the time, but the ideology itself continues to inspire violence.

0xcde4c3db 3y ago
I've heard that there's a scattered body of (amateur?) scholarship analyzing QAnon as an ARG [1] that the "players" don't realize is fictional. I've only briefly dabbled in "playing" ARGs, so I'm far from an expert, but the dynamic does seem strikingly similar. A few people allegedly even believe that QAnon originated as a legitimate attempt at an amateur ARG and was then hijacked by real-world political interests, though I don't understand how the ARG would have worked given the venue and content of the original "Q drops". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_reality_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_reality_game

jeffbee 3y ago

"""The Bulletin provides a forum for information exchange throughout the criminal justice community. Readers consist mostly of midlevel to executive managers in agencies of various sizes worldwide."""

Jensson 3y ago
And those will now think that LARPers who want privacy are terrorists? I don't see how this is a good way to separate LARPing from terrorism. It is scary to think that law enforcement thinks that people who want privacy are terrorists.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  This article is about how to test the genuineness of claims of LARPing by people suspected of attempting to overthrow governments. If you don't have the precondition of armed bandits circling your seat of government, then the article is of no relevance.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    The article is of relevance to anyone who is affected by criminal justice system. This is literally an article on how the law should be interpreted by federal law enforcement.
- pests 3y ago
  This is not "find larpers, check privacy, find crime" Its "find crime, they claim larping, check behavior to verify"
  - Jensson 3y ago
    The whole point is to tell the difference between "find larpers" and "find crime", so the rest of those points doesn't say anything. They found some people who did something suspicious, that is point 1, the next step is this document to help tell the difference.
    - pests 3y ago
      That is what I said.

toasted-subs 3y ago

Lol I wouldn't mind secrecy because I'm a kinky person. Seems like the FBI has never learned to enjoy yourself. No body with a hot girlfriend and a jacuzzi is flying planes into buildings.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

parsimo2010 3y ago

Because they need to provide a reference for when FBI agents in the future have to decide of someone is harmless or not. While this is available publicly, the audience is mostly law enforcement officers and possibly prosecutors. Many law enforcement officers have no familiarity with fantasy hobbies or war reenactment. Pointing out that LARPers use fake weapons and operate in the open is a good thing to point out. It’s not obvious to everyone.

Jensson 3y ago
> Pointing out that LARPers use fake weapons and operate in the open is a good thing to point out So you think it is fine to investigate people who play around on their private property for terrorism just because they don't want you watching? To me that seems very scary and oppressive.
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  if they post images and such providing evidence that they're plotting and have real weapons, if they're plotting the assassination of Lincoln using fake civil war weapons not so much, one clear distinction is members of a larp would only ever talk about police and govt if a real legit LARPer were having some criminal issue valid or not. Terrorists will seem wary or apprehensive or even combative in regards to police and govt, and have real weapons involved. They might even mention on social media derogatory remarks towards actual living people, LARPers may trash talk at Lord Farquad of The kingdom of Shrek but that's not the same as plotting to kidnap a govt official.
- parsimo2010 3y ago
  No, I think it’s good to know the difference between LARPers and terrorists so that the FBI doesn’t harass innocent people. It would suck if they were wasting their time spying on a LARP group because they thought they were actually committing violent acts.

_jal 3y ago

> Why is the FBI writing stuff like this and publishing it? Violent extremists use a variety of dodges to attempt to avoid accountability for their behavior. You've probably seen examples - it is very common to shout "false flag", claiming rivals impersonated them, for instance[1]. This is just another in a long line of those sorts of things. The FBI's remit includes investigating and arresting violent extremists. As such, they collect and disseminate information that assists with that goal. [1] Some of the same people also actually engage in "false flag" operations of their own - for instance, the "Boogaloo Boys" were responsible for violence and arson in Minnesota and murder in California during the George Floyd riots, which was initially misattributed to BLM-affiliated folks. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo...

adfgiionio 3y ago

TFA: >Violent and criminal actors, particularly those involved in a conspiracy, could potentially make false claims, explaining that they were merely LARPing and not intending to follow through with an attack. For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, he told the FBI he and his compatriots were only LARPing. Franks later pled guilty and testified that this was a lie.5 >Although the history of LARP as a legal defense is narrow, the authors share the concern that it may soon become commonplace. Early attempts at such a strategy have been made by a defendant acting alone6 or in loose cooperation with members of a fantasy group who knew each other only in the virtual world,7 claiming “artistic expression” to excuse threatening language.8

ajb 3y ago

Because rightly or wrongly, for serious violence the law considers not just the violence itself illegal, but also preparatory actions such as planning, sourcing weapons, etc. The bright line "when someone gets hurt" is too late, so analysis like this has to occur so that LARP can be distinguished from practicing before violent action, especially when the latter is claimed to be the former