4 ms·

What is offensive about that post? Maybe I'm missing something or others are reading too much into it. He says he would not recommend outsourcing to India, Paki

by jm4 18y ago

What is offensive about that post? Maybe I'm missing something or others are reading too much into it. He says he would not recommend outsourcing to India, Pakistan, etc., but would consider outsourcing to a qualified firm closer to home. This doesn't necessarily imply that he thinks developers in India and Pakistan are a bunch of dopes. In fact, it doesn't imply anything at all except that he prefers not to outsource overseas. We can really only speculate since he doesn't provide any reasons for his opinion, but maybe we should give him a little more credit here before we jump to conclusions and call the post offensive. His opinions could be explained with a variety of reasons like time difference, difficulty in communicating (either long distance phone calls or having to do everything over email) or even possible language barriers. Sometimes when you need a very specific result you need to be careful how you explain this to someone whose native language is different from your own. Even common figures of speech can be taken literally and result in confusion over what is expected. All of these possible hurdles can be alleviated by working with a group closer to home.

shard 18y ago
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, or maybe you missed this point: In response to a post that talked about an outsourced team that didn't even have the technical expertise to handle simple CSS bugs, he said he wouldn't consider outsourcing to India and Pakistan, which implies that those places have the characteristics of not having the technical expertise to handle simple bugs.
- swombat 18y ago
  Ok, I guess as the original poster of this incendiary comment (?) I can chip in about what I actually meant. I don't think simple CSS bugs are beyond the skills of even the below-average Indian outsourcing shop (though I'm sure some of them fail even on that level, and depending on how finicky you are about your CSS, maybe no one can do it but yourself). However, in my experience, the more complicated the task, the less likely it will be to get done via a simple outsourcing contract. A huge consulting company can successfully outsource very complex things, because they can invest in ensuring they hire quality resources. Someone who has personal contacts with people whom he knows are competent can also do it, because they already know where to find the quality. For the rest of us, though, there is a sea of bad options (the kind that often charge a few dollars an hour) and a few islets of quality. It's very hard to figure out which ones are the good ones, and these islets get smaller the more your task is complicated. Past a certain level of complexity (e.g. "put together a synchronous framework for a tool like Etherpad") you might as well not bother, your chances of hitting land are so low. This is not specific to India or Pakistan, it applies to China just as much. Eastern Europe is less of a problem for me because there are fewer communication barriers. My point, clarified, is then: Outsourcing complex tasks to a remote location with which there are communication difficulties is unlikely to work.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- jm4 18y ago
  I don't think it's even possible to miss the point I was trying to make more than you already have. I was cautioning against making assumptions about a person who has stated a vague opinion without the reasons for having that opinion. And just like the person I was responding to, you have done exactly that. Some people, based on past experience, expect to be offended and see malice in words where there is none. Sometimes we make connections between others' statement based on our own beliefs. I guess it's just human nature. It's probably easier to ask for some clarification.
  - shard 18y ago
    What's wonderful about our world is that there are a myriad of ways that people can perceive a situation, which allows all sorts of different viewpoints to emerge. I interpreted the situation differently from you based on my experience of conversation flow, and there's no need for me to agree to your point even though I understood it the first time. Some people, based on past experience, are unaware that their words may carry unintended malice or hurtfulness (see Rosie O'Donnell's 'Ching Chong' comments) or may harbor subconscious prejudices (see Project Implicit, https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/). It's better for all of us that these are pointed out rather than ignored.

by jm4 18y ago

shard 18y ago

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, or maybe you missed this point: In response to a post that talked about an outsourced team that didn't even have the technical expertise to handle simple CSS bugs, he said he wouldn't consider outsourcing to India and Pakistan, which implies that those places have the characteristics of not having the technical expertise to handle simple bugs.

swombat 18y ago
Ok, I guess as the original poster of this incendiary comment (?) I can chip in about what I actually meant. I don't think simple CSS bugs are beyond the skills of even the below-average Indian outsourcing shop (though I'm sure some of them fail even on that level, and depending on how finicky you are about your CSS, maybe no one can do it but yourself). However, in my experience, the more complicated the task, the less likely it will be to get done via a simple outsourcing contract. A huge consulting company can successfully outsource very complex things, because they can invest in ensuring they hire quality resources. Someone who has personal contacts with people whom he knows are competent can also do it, because they already know where to find the quality. For the rest of us, though, there is a sea of bad options (the kind that often charge a few dollars an hour) and a few islets of quality. It's very hard to figure out which ones are the good ones, and these islets get smaller the more your task is complicated. Past a certain level of complexity (e.g. "put together a synchronous framework for a tool like Etherpad") you might as well not bother, your chances of hitting land are so low. This is not specific to India or Pakistan, it applies to China just as much. Eastern Europe is less of a problem for me because there are fewer communication barriers. My point, clarified, is then: Outsourcing complex tasks to a remote location with which there are communication difficulties is unlikely to work.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
jm4 18y ago
I don't think it's even possible to miss the point I was trying to make more than you already have. I was cautioning against making assumptions about a person who has stated a vague opinion without the reasons for having that opinion. And just like the person I was responding to, you have done exactly that. Some people, based on past experience, expect to be offended and see malice in words where there is none. Sometimes we make connections between others' statement based on our own beliefs. I guess it's just human nature. It's probably easier to ask for some clarification.
- shard 18y ago
  What's wonderful about our world is that there are a myriad of ways that people can perceive a situation, which allows all sorts of different viewpoints to emerge. I interpreted the situation differently from you based on my experience of conversation flow, and there's no need for me to agree to your point even though I understood it the first time. Some people, based on past experience, are unaware that their words may carry unintended malice or hurtfulness (see Rosie O'Donnell's 'Ching Chong' comments) or may harbor subconscious prejudices (see Project Implicit, https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/). It's better for all of us that these are pointed out rather than ignored.