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>because other states tend to destroy the host No untrue. That is the most extreme case. A parasite can make a host less healthy and less likely to reproduce.

>because other states tend to destroy the host No untrue. That is the most extreme case. A parasite can make a host less healthy and less likely to reproduce. This all lives on a gradient where parasitic relationship move the likelihood of reproduction down a little while symbiosis is the most extreme state where reproductive success is only positively effected. >it's less appealing when you're talking about sticking a new bacteria in a specific person's mouth. What does appeal have to do with anything? Much of our medical treatments were unappealing at one point in time. Colonoscopy? Sticking a camera up your ass to prevent cancer. Surgery? Cutting you open to fix something. None of it appealing but all of it necessary and worth it in the end. Also keep in mind we live in times where much of the food we eat is bioengineered to live in symbiosis with us. The difference is instead of directly manipulating the gene, we indirectly manipulate it through artificial offspring selection. All domesticated animals and plants have been manipulated this way at a macro level for eons. The difference here is that the manipulation is happening on the molecular level rather then the macro level. Your aversion to it is just instinctive and habitual but it's no different to much of the things we already do.

lolinder 3y ago
> A parasite can make a host less healthy and less likely to reproduce. This all lives on a gradient where parasitic relationship move the likelihood of reproduction down a little while symbiosis is the most extreme state where reproductive success is only positively effected. Whether or not the host is destroyed, that symbiosis is the end game is not reassuring to someone whose mouth has gotten worse as a result of the treatment. I'm not saying it won't work and isn't worth a large scale trial, I'm just saying your arguments based on evolutionary theory aren't a sound basis for medicine. I would not take a tapeworm into me on the grounds that someday tapeworms might evolve into a symbiotic relationship with humans.
- corethree 3y ago
  >Whether or not the host is destroyed, that symbiosis is the end game is not reassuring to someone whose mouth has gotten worse as a result of the treatment. That is the point of clinical trials. No treatment can be released until it has been verified to be safe. >I'm not saying it won't work and isn't worth a large scale trial, I'm just saying your arguments based on evolutionary theory aren't a sound basis for medicine. I never said it was a sound basis in it's current form. It's a sound basis to move forward rahttps://news.ycombinator.com/newspidly https://news.ycombinator.com/newspidly to change the current theory into a sound basis. > I would not take a tapeworm into me on the grounds that someday tapeworms might evolve into a symbiotic relationship with humans. one average guy who literally did the opposite of you. Against all medical advice, he infected himself with hookworms: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/may/23/parasitic-hookworm-jasper-lawrence-tim-adams https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/may/23/parasit... podcast on the same guy who infected himself with hookworms: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/404/enemy-camp-2010/act-three-0 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/404/enemy-camp-2010/act-thr... The innovative risk takers are the ones that try things out and move things forward. I'm not recommending you become one, but I recommend you support people who have the drive and willingness to do this because you and I only stand to benefit. The other problem with science is that it's slow. Will science produce a verified treatment in your lifetime? Clinical trials cost millions. Maybe they'll do one, maybe not. In those cases if you have no other option, take a risk.
  - corethree 3y ago
    Another guy who did it: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/08/12/489619045/could-worms-in-your-gut-cure-your-allergies https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/08/12/4896190...

lolinder 3y ago

> A parasite can make a host less healthy and less likely to reproduce. This all lives on a gradient where parasitic relationship move the likelihood of reproduction down a little while symbiosis is the most extreme state where reproductive success is only positively effected. Whether or not the host is destroyed, that symbiosis is the end game is not reassuring to someone whose mouth has gotten worse as a result of the treatment. I'm not saying it won't work and isn't worth a large scale trial, I'm just saying your arguments based on evolutionary theory aren't a sound basis for medicine. I would not take a tapeworm into me on the grounds that someday tapeworms might evolve into a symbiotic relationship with humans.

corethree 3y ago
>Whether or not the host is destroyed, that symbiosis is the end game is not reassuring to someone whose mouth has gotten worse as a result of the treatment. That is the point of clinical trials. No treatment can be released until it has been verified to be safe. >I'm not saying it won't work and isn't worth a large scale trial, I'm just saying your arguments based on evolutionary theory aren't a sound basis for medicine. I never said it was a sound basis in it's current form. It's a sound basis to move forward rahttps://news.ycombinator.com/newspidly https://news.ycombinator.com/newspidly to change the current theory into a sound basis. > I would not take a tapeworm into me on the grounds that someday tapeworms might evolve into a symbiotic relationship with humans. one average guy who literally did the opposite of you. Against all medical advice, he infected himself with hookworms: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/may/23/parasitic-hookworm-jasper-lawrence-tim-adams https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/may/23/parasit... podcast on the same guy who infected himself with hookworms: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/404/enemy-camp-2010/act-three-0 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/404/enemy-camp-2010/act-thr... The innovative risk takers are the ones that try things out and move things forward. I'm not recommending you become one, but I recommend you support people who have the drive and willingness to do this because you and I only stand to benefit. The other problem with science is that it's slow. Will science produce a verified treatment in your lifetime? Clinical trials cost millions. Maybe they'll do one, maybe not. In those cases if you have no other option, take a risk.
- corethree 3y ago
  Another guy who did it: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/08/12/489619045/could-worms-in-your-gut-cure-your-allergies https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/08/12/4896190...