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The biggest problem with a total lack of moderation is stochastic terrorism. As a response to gp mentions, people attacking fiber optic cables for “causing covi

The biggest problem with a total lack of moderation is stochastic terrorism. As a response to gp mentions, people attacking fiber optic cables for “causing covid” is a problem that can’t simply be refuted logically.

nvm0n2 3y ago
What exactly is "stochastic terrorism"?
- notacoward 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism The term has been well known in public-policy discussions for at least a decade. The basic idea goes back a loooooong time, at least to 1170 when Henry II of England asked, "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" (meaning Thomas Becket). Thus he ensured that someone would and did, even though he didn't know who, where, or how. The fatwa against Salman Rushdie could serve as a contemporary example that also predates what wiki-editors seem aware of. Offering a clear path to gain favor is almost as good as an order. Nowadays, when a prominent US politician says "these people are {killing babies|sexualizing children|stealing an election} and something should be done about it" then it becomes increasingly likely that violent acts will follow, even though no specific or direct order was given. It's a way to rule by fear while supposedly retaining deniability, but anybody who has been paying attention can see right through it and it's beginning to look as though the legal system might catch up.
  - nobodyandproud 3y ago
    I agree that inciting riots and violence is not something to tolerate, but what’s new about this? I am not a lawyer but we’ve had these same discourses during the 1960s (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio)
    - notacoward 3y ago
      I cite an example from 1170 and you pretend I'm claiming it's new? Maybe you should direct your comments to my interlocutor, who claimed not to know the term in 2023. Using "this isn't new" as your standard opening - three times in this discussion alone and all of them a bit spurious - isn't very good for curious conversation.
      - nobodyandproud 3y ago
        > but anybody who has been paying attention can see right through it and it's beginning to look as though the legal system might catch up. Can you explain what you mean here, then? I’m talking about the current legal system here like you, so I’m wondering what’s fundamentally so new that censorship is the only answer here?
        notacoward 3y ago
        > Can you explain what you mean here, then? Exactly what it says: the legal system has not caught up. Even in a post-Brandenburg world, the standard is still that the threat must be both explicit and imminent. They're still struggling with the "stochastic" part of stochastic terrorism, even though the phenomenon itself has existed for centuries. > I’m talking about the current legal system here like you, so I’m wondering what’s fundamentally so new that censorship is the only answer here? Never said, never implied, not even relevant in this particular sub-thread.
        nobodyandproud 3y ago
        > Exactly what it says: the legal system has not caught up. Even in a post-Brandenburg world, the standard is still that the threat must be both explicit and imminent. They're still struggling with the "stochastic" part of stochastic terrorism, even though the phenomenon itself has existed for centuries. That’s not an answer. I already showed you where we have existing laws and precedent; so I ask again what’s different? Or are you saying that the bar for inciting violence was considered too stringent? Because the only legal lack I’m aware of is what to do when a President is the one that incites a rebellion. > Never said, never implied, not even relevant in this particular sub-thread. Fair. The sub-thread spawned from moderated speech but I agree moderation isn’t the same as censorship.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    Maybe public policy discussions between foolish people, but not elsewhere. You really don't want to go down the route of loosening the standards around blaming people for unrelated people's acts. Not only would that simply be an excuse to engage in actual terrorism, committed against anyone who has an opinion or enters politics, but it's a sword that cuts both ways. After all, the most violent political acts in the last few years in the USA were the Floyd riots. But do you really want to prosecute anyone who argues that there's a racism problem in America for "stochastic terrorism", because some people heard that and went looting? Seems obviously inflammatory and unwise.
  - leereeves 3y ago
    Any allegation of wrongdoing could conceivably trigger a violent response from a crazy person. Even accusing someone of "stochastic terrorism". Should you be held responsible if someone attacks "a prominent US politician" after reading your comment?
bavell 3y ago
I've never advocated for a total lack of moderation though
thsksbd 3y ago
Stochastic terrorism isn't a thing except a a cudgel to silence critics of established power.

nvm0n2 3y ago

What exactly is "stochastic terrorism"?

notacoward 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism The term has been well known in public-policy discussions for at least a decade. The basic idea goes back a loooooong time, at least to 1170 when Henry II of England asked, "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" (meaning Thomas Becket). Thus he ensured that someone would and did, even though he didn't know who, where, or how. The fatwa against Salman Rushdie could serve as a contemporary example that also predates what wiki-editors seem aware of. Offering a clear path to gain favor is almost as good as an order. Nowadays, when a prominent US politician says "these people are {killing babies|sexualizing children|stealing an election} and something should be done about it" then it becomes increasingly likely that violent acts will follow, even though no specific or direct order was given. It's a way to rule by fear while supposedly retaining deniability, but anybody who has been paying attention can see right through it and it's beginning to look as though the legal system might catch up.
- nobodyandproud 3y ago
  I agree that inciting riots and violence is not something to tolerate, but what’s new about this? I am not a lawyer but we’ve had these same discourses during the 1960s (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio)
  - notacoward 3y ago
    I cite an example from 1170 and you pretend I'm claiming it's new? Maybe you should direct your comments to my interlocutor, who claimed not to know the term in 2023. Using "this isn't new" as your standard opening - three times in this discussion alone and all of them a bit spurious - isn't very good for curious conversation.
    - nobodyandproud 3y ago
      > but anybody who has been paying attention can see right through it and it's beginning to look as though the legal system might catch up. Can you explain what you mean here, then? I’m talking about the current legal system here like you, so I’m wondering what’s fundamentally so new that censorship is the only answer here?
      - notacoward 3y ago
        > Can you explain what you mean here, then? Exactly what it says: the legal system has not caught up. Even in a post-Brandenburg world, the standard is still that the threat must be both explicit and imminent. They're still struggling with the "stochastic" part of stochastic terrorism, even though the phenomenon itself has existed for centuries. > I’m talking about the current legal system here like you, so I’m wondering what’s fundamentally so new that censorship is the only answer here? Never said, never implied, not even relevant in this particular sub-thread.
        nobodyandproud 3y ago
        > Exactly what it says: the legal system has not caught up. Even in a post-Brandenburg world, the standard is still that the threat must be both explicit and imminent. They're still struggling with the "stochastic" part of stochastic terrorism, even though the phenomenon itself has existed for centuries. That’s not an answer. I already showed you where we have existing laws and precedent; so I ask again what’s different? Or are you saying that the bar for inciting violence was considered too stringent? Because the only legal lack I’m aware of is what to do when a President is the one that incites a rebellion. > Never said, never implied, not even relevant in this particular sub-thread. Fair. The sub-thread spawned from moderated speech but I agree moderation isn’t the same as censorship.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  Maybe public policy discussions between foolish people, but not elsewhere. You really don't want to go down the route of loosening the standards around blaming people for unrelated people's acts. Not only would that simply be an excuse to engage in actual terrorism, committed against anyone who has an opinion or enters politics, but it's a sword that cuts both ways. After all, the most violent political acts in the last few years in the USA were the Floyd riots. But do you really want to prosecute anyone who argues that there's a racism problem in America for "stochastic terrorism", because some people heard that and went looting? Seems obviously inflammatory and unwise.
- leereeves 3y ago
  Any allegation of wrongdoing could conceivably trigger a violent response from a crazy person. Even accusing someone of "stochastic terrorism". Should you be held responsible if someone attacks "a prominent US politician" after reading your comment?

bavell 3y ago

I've never advocated for a total lack of moderation though

thsksbd 3y ago

Stochastic terrorism isn't a thing except a a cudgel to silence critics of established power.