3 ms·

I think your proposal - that he was pissed and that he was acting out on account of it - is quite probably correct, and that's just self-important entitlement,

I think your proposal - that he was pissed and that he was acting out on account of it - is quite probably correct, and that's just self-important entitlement, whether its Lou Reed or Miles Davis doing it, and particularly in conjunction with his vigorous pursuit of royalties on his most popular works. If you choose to enter the marketplace, you have no basis for complaining when you are judged by it.

coldtea 3y ago
Sorry, but the idea that the musician should be a "song-and-dance" man, pleasing the audience, or else they should forfeit their "vigorous pursuit of royalties", is some next level entitlement. It's also more of what a label producer would say to made-by-the-company boy bands, or can be said about market friendly "entertainer" types, and tribute bands, not something that should in any culture should apply to artists.
- mannykannot 3y ago
  If artists choose to participate in the marketplace, then while doing so they are, to a not inconsiderable sense, choosing to be "song and dance men". And even when not, they have no justification for demanding or even expecting that others will agree to their personal estimation of their own works.
  - jjulius 3y ago
    I'm genuinely curious about your relationship with music - is it that of a consumer, or have you ever interacted with it in a more direct way (eg, playing an instrument, making your own music, getting involved with your local scene, etc.)?
    - mannykannot 3y ago
      And I'm genuinely curious as to why you might think that is of any relevance, especially as we have the opinion of an established musician quoted elsewhere in this discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37625189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37625189 and also the examples of Brubeck and the Rolling Stones. As it happens, I am merely a consumer, while several of my close relatives are musicians, two make a living from it, one of whom also composes and has had their work performed in professional concerts by other musicians. Now, how about you? And let's hear from coldtea as well, especially given his remarkably condescending reply to the above post (I associate that sort of attitude largely with teenagers - which, of course, he may be.)
      - jjulius 3y ago
        As I read your last post I suddenly had a hunch, is all, and I wanted to see if maybe it was correct. I thought that, given how firm-footed you've been in your view here, it was unlikely that you'd been involved with music yourself beyond being a consumer. That perhaps you hadn't ever really interacted with it from an artistic/creative standpoint. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with that, or that I'm trying to use it as a slight towards you, I just feel that how we interact with an art form might also play in to how we view the output of artists. In short - I'm asking because I wanted to better understand what shapes your thoughts. >Now, how about you? Sure! I was raised in a very music-first household, picked up the violin at the age of 9, and ended up teaching myself to play the bass, the alto sax, the guitar, piano and how to DJ by the time I left high school. I've played extensively in a few jazz bands and have had mild success as a local dance music DJ. I also worked with a variety of underground concert promoters throughout my 20's, and still volunteer to set up sound or work the door at shows from time to time. My vinyl collection is also getting to be a bit too large, but c'est la vie.
        mannykannot 3y ago
        Good for you! I admire musical talent. My parents are musical, but I'm rhythm-impaired and can't even touch-type at typical speeds. I can and do sing, but my only talent in that regard is being able to remember the words. What shapes my thoughts here has almost nothing to do with music per se, and is instead grounded in a concept of fairness in the implicit and customary contract between performers and their audience. Caveat emptor is not a satisfactory response here, IMHO, and the logical conclusion of that route is that the audience should demand a setlist before buying tickets, which would not be to anyone's benefit. to be clear, I don't think Reed's behavior here was egregious; it was merely a peccadillo.

coldtea 3y ago

Sorry, but the idea that the musician should be a "song-and-dance" man, pleasing the audience, or else they should forfeit their "vigorous pursuit of royalties", is some next level entitlement. It's also more of what a label producer would say to made-by-the-company boy bands, or can be said about market friendly "entertainer" types, and tribute bands, not something that should in any culture should apply to artists.

mannykannot 3y ago
If artists choose to participate in the marketplace, then while doing so they are, to a not inconsiderable sense, choosing to be "song and dance men". And even when not, they have no justification for demanding or even expecting that others will agree to their personal estimation of their own works.
- jjulius 3y ago
  I'm genuinely curious about your relationship with music - is it that of a consumer, or have you ever interacted with it in a more direct way (eg, playing an instrument, making your own music, getting involved with your local scene, etc.)?
  - mannykannot 3y ago
    And I'm genuinely curious as to why you might think that is of any relevance, especially as we have the opinion of an established musician quoted elsewhere in this discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37625189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37625189 and also the examples of Brubeck and the Rolling Stones. As it happens, I am merely a consumer, while several of my close relatives are musicians, two make a living from it, one of whom also composes and has had their work performed in professional concerts by other musicians. Now, how about you? And let's hear from coldtea as well, especially given his remarkably condescending reply to the above post (I associate that sort of attitude largely with teenagers - which, of course, he may be.)
    - jjulius 3y ago
      As I read your last post I suddenly had a hunch, is all, and I wanted to see if maybe it was correct. I thought that, given how firm-footed you've been in your view here, it was unlikely that you'd been involved with music yourself beyond being a consumer. That perhaps you hadn't ever really interacted with it from an artistic/creative standpoint. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with that, or that I'm trying to use it as a slight towards you, I just feel that how we interact with an art form might also play in to how we view the output of artists. In short - I'm asking because I wanted to better understand what shapes your thoughts. >Now, how about you? Sure! I was raised in a very music-first household, picked up the violin at the age of 9, and ended up teaching myself to play the bass, the alto sax, the guitar, piano and how to DJ by the time I left high school. I've played extensively in a few jazz bands and have had mild success as a local dance music DJ. I also worked with a variety of underground concert promoters throughout my 20's, and still volunteer to set up sound or work the door at shows from time to time. My vinyl collection is also getting to be a bit too large, but c'est la vie.
      - mannykannot 3y ago
        Good for you! I admire musical talent. My parents are musical, but I'm rhythm-impaired and can't even touch-type at typical speeds. I can and do sing, but my only talent in that regard is being able to remember the words. What shapes my thoughts here has almost nothing to do with music per se, and is instead grounded in a concept of fairness in the implicit and customary contract between performers and their audience. Caveat emptor is not a satisfactory response here, IMHO, and the logical conclusion of that route is that the audience should demand a setlist before buying tickets, which would not be to anyone's benefit. to be clear, I don't think Reed's behavior here was egregious; it was merely a peccadillo.