5 ms·

Sovereignty is impossible without defense. Defense is impossible without credible deterrence. Deterrence forces of newly established states are probably impossi

Sovereignty is impossible without defense. Defense is impossible without credible deterrence. Deterrence forces of newly established states are probably impossible without private nuclear weapons.

tgv 3y ago
Liechtenstein? Andorra? Luxembourg?
- thsksbd 3y ago
  Lets add San Marino, Monaco and the Vatican for good measure. All those states have very specific historical reasons why they dodged unification with their surrounding countries. The most surreal being Monaco's sovereignty saved by Grace Kelly's fame as an actress moving American public opinion to pressure France not to swallow it. Also, note, that all the towns you listed are (historically) worthless border towns wedged between titans who would violently oppose their neighbor swallowing them. Sure, now those microstates are rich, but historically they were worthless and not worth war with a powerful neighbor to take over.
  - jonhohle 3y ago
    Taiwan?
    - SonicScrub 3y ago
      > Sovereignty is impossible without defense. Defense is impossible without credible deterrence See above
    - thsksbd 3y ago
      You're comparing an island with millions of people to Andorra? Except for Luxembourg a few hundred guys could besiege all of the states listed above. Ten thousand would suffice for Luxembourg. As it stands no one is really sure if China - with one of the the world's largest armed forced - could successfully invade Taiwan.
      - radiator 3y ago
        No, some people are sure that China could.
    - panick21_ 3y ago
      That's a country with 23 million people.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    > The most surreal being Monaco's sovereignty saved by Grace Kelly's fame as an actress moving American public opinion to pressure France not to swallow it. I'm not quite sure that this was the case. Monaco was independent long before Grace Kelly married the incumbent prince. The country is a tax haven, which seems to be enough for many micronations to survive.
    - thsksbd 3y ago
      Indeed but DeGaulle blockaded the principality in 1962.
      - manuelabeledo 3y ago
        Not to gain control of its territory, but for economic reasons [0] > In 1962, the crisis was triggered by a very technical provision on the nullity of share sales under certain conditions (Mourlane, 2005). The provision was introduced specifically to enable the state of Monaco to regain control on Radio Monte-Carlo (RMC) and Télé Monte-Carlo (TMC), two leading media outlets in France (Bézias, 2007). The French government owned the shares of the companies through various subsidiaries. This was a political matter: with the war in Algeria, media were closely controlled in France, so broadcasters from Monaco and Luxembourg (RTL) enjoyed more freedom and the right to air advertisement. The amusing fact is that the transmitters of RMC and TMC were located on a nearby hill… in France. > Organising more OECD workshops on double-taxation is certainly not as romantic as trying to starve Princess Grace Kelly, but, as de Gaulle said in 1944, “The most noble principles in the world live only through action“. [0] https://www.finance-watch.org/lessons-from-history-the-monaco-crisis-from-1962-1963-and-the-emancipation-of-tax-havens/ https://www.finance-watch.org/lessons-from-history-the-monac...
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Is any of these countries really on their own?
  - tgv 3y ago
    Luxembourg certainly is.
    - yreg 3y ago
      Luxembourg is a founding NATO member.
- js8 3y ago
  They are often tax havens, which attract rich people and by taxing them very lightly, they are able to support a small local population. So there is desire on the part of rich elites to keep them. They're like parasites in a global economic system. Imperial powers are similar to carnivores, they can force their economic will onto other nations, but at the high cost of maintaining large military, and smaller nations that build up their economy are like herbivores, they focus on internal prosperity, rather than outside world.
Simulacra 3y ago
You're not wrong. Most countries are just one pissed off dictator away from being overtaken. Western democracies have shown they are not willing to go to war over small countries anymore. If Germany annexed Austria, again, Europe is not going to go to war against Germany to save it. Austria, or any country can only be defended if they have their own nuclear weapons. That is the only deterrence that works. Unless one of those larger countries breaks up, there will be no new sovereign territories.
- arwineap 3y ago
  I'm not an expert on geopolitics but I suspect the world would do more than raise eyebrows if Germany raised an army and invaded austria
  - kergonath 3y ago
    There is also the practical issue that the EU is fundamentally (and on purpose) a mutually assured destruction mechanism in such cases.
PeterisP 3y ago
Sovereignty is clearly possible without defense as long as everyone around you acknowledge it, like all the European microstates listed in other comments. You don't need deterrence if there is noone to deter, which is the case iff any newly established states are established with a consensus of their neighbors.

Sovereignty is impossible without defense. Defense is impossible without credible deterrence. Deterrence forces of newly established states are probably impossible without private nuclear weapons.

tgv 3y ago

Liechtenstein? Andorra? Luxembourg?

thsksbd 3y ago
Lets add San Marino, Monaco and the Vatican for good measure. All those states have very specific historical reasons why they dodged unification with their surrounding countries. The most surreal being Monaco's sovereignty saved by Grace Kelly's fame as an actress moving American public opinion to pressure France not to swallow it. Also, note, that all the towns you listed are (historically) worthless border towns wedged between titans who would violently oppose their neighbor swallowing them. Sure, now those microstates are rich, but historically they were worthless and not worth war with a powerful neighbor to take over.
- jonhohle 3y ago
  Taiwan?
  - SonicScrub 3y ago
    > Sovereignty is impossible without defense. Defense is impossible without credible deterrence See above
  - thsksbd 3y ago
    You're comparing an island with millions of people to Andorra? Except for Luxembourg a few hundred guys could besiege all of the states listed above. Ten thousand would suffice for Luxembourg. As it stands no one is really sure if China - with one of the the world's largest armed forced - could successfully invade Taiwan.
    - radiator 3y ago
      No, some people are sure that China could.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    That's a country with 23 million people.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  > The most surreal being Monaco's sovereignty saved by Grace Kelly's fame as an actress moving American public opinion to pressure France not to swallow it. I'm not quite sure that this was the case. Monaco was independent long before Grace Kelly married the incumbent prince. The country is a tax haven, which seems to be enough for many micronations to survive.
  - thsksbd 3y ago
    Indeed but DeGaulle blockaded the principality in 1962.
    - manuelabeledo 3y ago
      Not to gain control of its territory, but for economic reasons [0] > In 1962, the crisis was triggered by a very technical provision on the nullity of share sales under certain conditions (Mourlane, 2005). The provision was introduced specifically to enable the state of Monaco to regain control on Radio Monte-Carlo (RMC) and Télé Monte-Carlo (TMC), two leading media outlets in France (Bézias, 2007). The French government owned the shares of the companies through various subsidiaries. This was a political matter: with the war in Algeria, media were closely controlled in France, so broadcasters from Monaco and Luxembourg (RTL) enjoyed more freedom and the right to air advertisement. The amusing fact is that the transmitters of RMC and TMC were located on a nearby hill… in France. > Organising more OECD workshops on double-taxation is certainly not as romantic as trying to starve Princess Grace Kelly, but, as de Gaulle said in 1944, “The most noble principles in the world live only through action“. [0] https://www.finance-watch.org/lessons-from-history-the-monaco-crisis-from-1962-1963-and-the-emancipation-of-tax-havens/ https://www.finance-watch.org/lessons-from-history-the-monac...
beebeepka 3y ago
Is any of these countries really on their own?
- tgv 3y ago
  Luxembourg certainly is.
  - yreg 3y ago
    Luxembourg is a founding NATO member.
js8 3y ago
They are often tax havens, which attract rich people and by taxing them very lightly, they are able to support a small local population. So there is desire on the part of rich elites to keep them. They're like parasites in a global economic system. Imperial powers are similar to carnivores, they can force their economic will onto other nations, but at the high cost of maintaining large military, and smaller nations that build up their economy are like herbivores, they focus on internal prosperity, rather than outside world.

Simulacra 3y ago

You're not wrong. Most countries are just one pissed off dictator away from being overtaken. Western democracies have shown they are not willing to go to war over small countries anymore. If Germany annexed Austria, again, Europe is not going to go to war against Germany to save it. Austria, or any country can only be defended if they have their own nuclear weapons. That is the only deterrence that works. Unless one of those larger countries breaks up, there will be no new sovereign territories.

arwineap 3y ago
I'm not an expert on geopolitics but I suspect the world would do more than raise eyebrows if Germany raised an army and invaded austria
- kergonath 3y ago
  There is also the practical issue that the EU is fundamentally (and on purpose) a mutually assured destruction mechanism in such cases.

PeterisP 3y ago

Sovereignty is clearly possible without defense as long as everyone around you acknowledge it, like all the European microstates listed in other comments. You don't need deterrence if there is noone to deter, which is the case iff any newly established states are established with a consensus of their neighbors.