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Why can’t Americans buy cheap Chinese EVs?
- thebears5454 3y agoIts just blatant protectionism, which ironically hurts both Americans and American automakers.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- RugnirViking 3y agoWell yeah. I don't know why you say "blatant" though, its not something to be ashamed of nor does any country make an attempt to hide it. As the article says, Europe has tarrifs on car imports too, as do most other nations.
- mathisfun123 3y ago> its not something to be ashamed of It's not? I mean I'm certainly ashamed when I behave hypocritically* but I guess I've just watched too many Disney movies where the protagonist overcomes their pretensions and learns humility. * Isn't the US the great bastion of the free market, rugged capitalism, entrepreneurial spirit etc etc etc? I mean at least that's what I see all the people on here claiming vis-a-vis why SV is better than everyone else.
- phh 3y ago> * Isn't the US the great bastion of the free market, rugged capitalism, entrepreneurial spirit etc etc etc? I mean at least that's what I see all the people on here claiming vis-a-vis why SV is better than everyone else. I'm fairly new to US point of view (as in, I witness it only since like 10 years ago), but I feel like this has evolved, and the actual theories of "free market" (which include not having roadblocks, promoting SMBs because of diminishing returns , the need to inform the consumers, the integration of externalities in the taxes) are getting more and more support in the US, especially in SV. I think this has been severely pushed by US' Healthcare sector, where there is no obvious blatant anti competitive behaviors, but have profound negative impact on US society. I think conglomerates killing small useful services by providing the same for free (but bad and without any further innovation) have also had impact there. I'm sure most people on HN has a service in their mind that used to be great, that got killed by Google doing the same for free, but that got enshittified and they are sad the original service is dead.
- TeMPOraL 3y agoThe US GOV aren't idiots, either. A car is in fact a good example here - specifically, an ICE car. It's a contraption powered by repeatedly pouring explodium into a chamber and making it go off, then using the boom to both spin wheels and pull in more explodium for another run. More explodium means more power means faster car means better, right? On the contrary, an ICE needs just right amount of explodium, and is designed to ensure that; pour more, it'll stop and/or set itself on fire. Same is with the market. Let it run completely free, and it'll collapse into bunch of tribes led by warlords, producing little more than suffering and death at scale.
- mathisfun123 3y ago> tribes led by warlords, producing little more than suffering and death at scale ...this is literally already the case, except they're our warlords instead of chinese warlords: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_%26_Williamson#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_%26_Williamson#Controver... just so there's no mistaking it: these are american companies > Let it run completely free, and it'll collapse why doesn't it collapse?
- TeMPOraL 3y ago>> Let it run completely free, and it'll collapse > why doesn't it collapse? Because the government aren't idiots and aren't letting it run completely free.
- mathisfun123 3y ago> aren't letting it run completely free but they are? that's what the links demonstrate (you do have read them to get that point though).
- varelse 3y ago[dead]
- Amezarak 3y agoProtectionism seems to have worked really well for China, and it helped America get to where it was 60 years ago. Meanwhile, relatively recent free trade treaties hollowed the American economy out and contributed to its financialization. I'd like to go back, please.
- Blackthorn 3y agoIf the state of China right now is considered winning, I'll keep losing.
- TeMPOraL 3y agoThen you would be a loser in every way. The state of China today is far from perfect, but they got from nothing to where they are, industrializing within living memory. I think even people with strongest negative sentiments towards China recognize this as impressive achievement.
- psd1 3y agoSouth Korea is notable for using protectionism for a phase, to allow domestic industry to reach a size where it can survive without protection
- forinti 3y agoAmerica kicked away its own ladder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-Joon_Chang#Kicking_Away_the_Ladder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-Joon_Chang#Kicking_Away_the... I think Reagan and Thatcher started to believe the stories the central economies told the peripheral economies.
- killjoywashere 3y ago[flagged]
- KirillPanov 3y ago[flagged]
- neoromantique 3y ago[flagged]
- darkerside 3y agoI'm sympathetic to your cause, but this is completely off topic.
- killjoywashere 3y agoParent's actual imgur is a very thin black image of a post from the grandparent commenter. It's quite on topic. However, I see imgur suggesting some very off-topic things below that, so I can see how you may have thought that.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- KirillPanov 3y ago> Parent's actual imgur is a very thin black image of a post from the grandparent commenter ... which has has absolutely nothing to do with the dangers of self-driving/hackable cars. Totally off-topic.
- TMWNN 3y agoJust stop. You know very well that neoromantique's image is very on-topic. killjoywashere, I, and everyone else knows that you know that, so there's no point in backpedaling.
- beardyw 3y agoIt's not a zero sum game. In trade wars everyone thinks they are winning, but everyone is losing.
- RugnirViking 3y agoI think it's complicated. On the one hand, protectionism results in duplicated companies, duplicated effort. On the other hand (as is the case with the tarrifs between US and europe car industries) it results in multiple large competitors which sometimes results in a healthy market. The world and health of the economy would imo be much better if we had 6 or 7 competing mobile operating systems, or chip manufacturers, etc.
- varelse 3y ago[dead]
- gonzo41 3y agoDuplicated effort means dignified jobs for the middle class to provide for their families. If you globalize everything and have a super efficient atomized machine then there's a lot of people who've been 'liberated' from their jobs who then get crappy jobs with no benefits like driving ubers sporadically. We don't have a world government that has a social contract to provide for all. Rather we have nations that sometimes provide for their citizens. And then theirs multinationals which sort of float above it causing mayhem for the plebs. But to the original point, if you want cheap EV's you could build them smaller with less features and not try out out compete a F150.
- jowea 3y agoOnly if those were interoperable. Having two major mobile operating systems already requires app developers to think about two apps, or platforms that work on both apps, or limit themselves to the web. If we had 6 OSes and chip manufacturers wouldn't we end up with a much worse version of "developing for Linux is too hard because each distro does it their own way"?
- actionfromafar 3y ago
- DrNosferatu 3y agoWhat are the Euro-NCAP safety ratings of the Chinese EVs with the most sales in Europe?
- Symbiote 3y agoAt least the one mentioned in the article has a 5/5 rating: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/atto+3/46635 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/atto+3/46635
- DrNosferatu 3y agoThe Chinese EVs seem as safe as any European EV. - Instead of tariffs, why not compulsory long warranty? (say, 10 years) It would benefit the consumer, the environment, and prevent sweatshops at the country of manufacture. Surely European cars can compete on quality against outsiders…
- ricardobayes 3y agoUsed to be terrible (as in, 1/5) a few years ago, but now they are 4 or 5 usually. I believe they are going to dominate the market as their EV offering is great, 450km of autonomy for 19000€. Similar spec in even low-end german makes are going for 40-50k€+ The mobile phone market showed that people generally don't care about a brand name, unless it's really premium. "Legacy" lower and mid-tier EU brands are going to have a hard time going forward imo.
- oddmiral 3y agoWhy Americans cannot produce cheap EVs?
- say_it_as_it_is 3y agoShareholders will not accept anything but unlimited growth in profits
- Simulacra 3y agoA lot of factors, the cost of labor, the increasing cost of parts, unions, everything drives up costs
- datavirtue 3y agoFinance model.
- tooltalk 3y agoChevy Bolt, now discontinued, was in the $20K's. In general, EVs won't get cheaper until various supply-chain constraints (eg, batteries) are relieved.
- say_it_as_it_is 3y agoHas anyone bought any electronic device made in China that wasn't cheap: cheap quality, cheap price? Now we're supposed to trust that their electronic cars aren't like every electronic device ever made there? Trade protectionism is saving Americans a lot of grief.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- user_named 3y agoAll components used by Apple are designed and manufactured in China. Apple just slaps their logo on it.
- kcplate 3y agoThey also demand a level of QC on their product that other manufacturers that I have seen don’t.
- tooltalk 3y agoMore like 85+% of the entire iPhone BOM are still made outside China. Most key high-value, high-tech components like OLED display, AP, wireless modem, storage (NAND/DRAM), camera sensors, etc, are designed and manufactured by non-Chinese companies. China makes mostly low-value, low-tech components and assembly/packaging.
- trogdor 3y agoWhere are the components you mentioned manufactured?
- tooltalk 3y agoThe US, South Korea, Japan, etc.. China about 3.8% in the iPhone 14; and 4.5% in the 13: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-14-teardown-reveals-parts-20-costlier-than-previous-model https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-14-teardo...
- AniseAbyss 3y ago[dead]
- jillesvangurp 3y agoThe short answer is protectionism and import restrictions. And that's not just limited to cars. But it is starting to get a bit awkward as it seems that domestic producers aren't really stepping in the void created by these restrictions when it comes to EVs. The opportunity is there but nothing is happening. Why is that? The more relevant question to ask is why American car manufacturers, with the exception of Tesla, struggle to export in volume and seem to have largely withdrawn from the international market. I think it is simply because they are no longer competitive enough to survive without a lot of protectionist measures keeping superior products off the market. That works in the US of course. But it has also killed the export market. The European perspective to this is that (Tesla excepted) you don't buy an American car because of performance, cost, efficiency, build quality, etc. A European might buy one because they are big, loud, and a bit obnoxious though. Seems to be a thing with some of the rich people here in Berlin certainly. But you just don't see a lot of American cars here. When you do it's either some old sensible Ford model from when those were still being made; or an imported muscle car with some large engine making a lot of noise and smoke. I even saw an actual truck in Berlin a few months ago. These are very rare in Europe. They just aren't very practical. You can't navigate small streets with them. And nobody in their right mind would use these commercially because the fuel cost would be a big overhead. They are expensive toys but otherwise not competitive. Not even close.
- 29athrowaway 3y agoAmerican cars may not be popular in Europe but they do sell in the Asia Pacific region. The European consumer often looks after more compact, fuel efficient cars.
- tooltalk 3y ago>> American cars may not be popular in Europe but they do sell in the Asia Pacific region. << America's brands such as Buick and Cadillacs are quite popular and sell well in China via local JV where their sales are so-so in the US.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoWell actually European Fords are being sold, but they are not sold in USA - Ford C-Max, Ford S-Max, Ford Ka, Ford Fiesta, Ford Focus, ...
- user_named 3y agoBecause America is not a free market and never has been
- Simulacra 3y agoThere's a lot of reasons, but for me, it comes down to safety. I just don't trust Chinese engineering.
- blueblisters 3y agoI'm surprised no Chinese automaker has looked at the American market the way Japanese automakers did a few decades ago. Their cost advantage makes it a no-brainer and designing a car to meet American regulations shouldn't be that hard. It's easy to bypass trade restrictions by manufacturing in the US/Mexico if Chinese automakers think of the market in terms of a long-term investment.
- Roark66 3y ago>China, meanwhile, has become a global powerhouse in electric cars: It’s expected to account for about 60% of the world’s 14.1 million new passenger EV sales this year, according to BloombergNEF. This is bull**. Why? Because in China it has became extremely profitable to manufacture the shittiest EVs possible and send them to ev graveyard fields immediately after manufacture (even the usual China cheerleader Bloomberg has to admit it: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/ ) to claim China is "going green". All while approving 2 new coal fired power plant every week and laughing at us in the West as we go further to deindustrialise our countries, becoming reliant on China for basic materials such as steel(not even mentioning rare earth metals and how they mine/process them). These articles are pure 100% pro-Chinese propaganda. See another example of a company cheerleading for the authoritarian regime Blackrock. They wrote articles just last year trying to convince people to "invest in China". Was this just incompetence? No it wasn't. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/01/investing/china-congress-blackrock-msci/index.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/01/inve... Not only they lost a shit-ton of money. They were "investing" in companies using force labour and funding companies making stuff for the Chinese army. However, what is most important is that this came to the attention of the US congress when Blackrock started loosing money. When they were profitable no one would care... Bloomberg tries to portray themselves as objective, but their content shows where they really are on China.
- methou 3y agoIf they don't have bloatware/spyware on it, I might would consider. There's an thread from just a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37443644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37443644
- Roark66 3y agoEuropeans too "can't buy cheap Chinese EVs" and yet there is a (slightly) bigger choice of models in Europe. Why? Because Europe has laws that requires car makers to make certain types of cars even if it's not the most profitable. Would this work in US? IDK. But opening up the market to the enemy is not the only way to change the situation.
- xnx 3y agoCould chinese electric cars be legally sold as kits that get assembled by the us customer?
- datavirtue 3y agoYes. Would need inspected and passed by the highway patrol.
- dirtyid 3y agoBecause US manufacturers will eventually get out competed even with reciprocal 25%-50% import taxes. With how things are going I'd be surprised if US even allows PRC cars from Mexico or Canada on US roads.