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I'd rather be unemployed and live off charity kitchen soups than engage in these juvenile games. As a society we need to find a way to stop rewarding slyness a

I'd rather be unemployed and live off charity kitchen soups than engage in these juvenile games. As a society we need to find a way to stop rewarding slyness and trickery (aka marketing)

arek_nawo 3y ago
I want to think of marketing as a way of providing valuable content and explaining why your product might be just what the consumer needs (potentially helping them with their problems). What's described above really doesn't fit into this view, but is definitely how I've seen people "play the game". ChatGPT-generated fluff, copied content, and the same tips & tricks, inspirational stories, etc. you see repurposed all the time on different platforms - especially LinkedIn. I hope marketing can be good and value-adding but, the way it's going right now, we're due for a change.
nickfromseattle 3y ago
>I'd rather be unemployed and live off charity kitchen soups than engage in these juvenile games. What if you replaced the word marketing with attention? Would you rather live of soup kitchens than have the attention of your ideal customers?
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  The competition of legal entities for our attention seems to be one of the major reasons of chronic stress and mental illness in the west, so the answer is yes.
- austinjp 3y ago
  This conflates the ends and the means. They're different and both deserve consideration. Some reading: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_end_justifies_the_means https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_end_justifies_the_mean... https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_the-business-ethics-workshop/s06-theories-of-duties-and-rights-.html https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_the-business-ethics-work...
- latexr 3y ago
  > What if you replaced the word marketing with attention? Then you would be making a different argument. Marketing and attention are not the same thing: the former is one means to the latter. Marketing is grabbing attention by force, which could be considered unethical; attention by itself can be consensual and organic.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
skwee357 3y ago
I’m with you my friend. I’d rather go back to be employed and post helpful stuff to my blog, than try to promote my products using click bait tactics on social media. It’s funny, but when you post an obvious click bait to Reddit/hn everybody is like “this is clickbait, the author is trying to sell you his coaching”, etc. But then, when you say you don’t want to participate in algorithm hunger games, everyone is like “no, you won’t succeed. You need to shove your products down the throat if your readers”. :puke:
- skwee357 3y ago
  Here is a good example. About 2.5 months ago, I’ve shared a blog post I wrote, here on HN [1]. The blog post was authentic with a simple purpose: (1) I like to write, and (2) I believed writing is beneficial to everyone. I share all my blog posts here, none of them performed as well as this one (check my profile if you want). Seeing the success and the traffic this post generated, I crafted a quick form to offer FREE coaching session. Free as Linux free. I gave 2.5 hours of my time for free. In exchange, I asked my mentees for testimonials. A fair transaction I guess. It’s a great way to build my brand. I put a small, non intrusive banner on my blog, with a message of free coaching session (the same banner now promotes my book). It’s not a pop up that jumps when you scroll to the bottom, it’s not a JavaScript scripts that pops up when you close the tab. It’s a ~30px, non sticky bar at the top, the goes away with a little scroll. Top comment on HN? My post is cringy and I’m yet another “coaching bro” that promotes his stuff. :shrug: [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659166
  - nico 3y ago
    So what? You need to grow a thicker skin Building an audience and selling a product is in large part about rejection. You will get tons of comments like that. Haters are going to hate, no matter what you do Yes, it hurts, but just keep going. If the top comment represented everyone’s sentiment, your post wouldn’t have gotten 200+ upvotes (congrats by the way, not an easy feat)
    - skwee357 3y ago
nico 3y ago
It’s not juvenile games, it’s hard work. If it was easy games everyone would be raking it in If anything, the juvenile thing to do is to look at reality the way it is and deny it because it doesn’t fit our personal world view I get it, we’d love a world in which we could just do our best work and everyone could see it and recognize it But reality is that people are thinking about themselves and are not searching for what we are building. How would they ever find out about what we do if we are not telling them? You have a serious misunderstanding of what marketing is if you think it’s slyness and trickery Of course I’m not going to convince you otherwise, but I think it might help you to actually do research, read a marketing book and talk to people in marketing to understand what it really is
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  Nobody said that juvenile games cannot be hard work. And yes, I do believe that most smart people can "rake it in" if they decide to play this game. You mention deny reality. Reality is formed by our actions. Adherence to such systems and the playing of juvenile games ensures their perpetuation. I shall not contribute to what I think is the wrong way to go. And yes, marketing is slyness and trickery. 95% of marketing is A/B ad and layout testing. Or shall we consider the great, historical marketing successes such as promoting cigarettes as healthy, or breakfast cereal ?
  - nico 3y ago
    At this point you are either just trolling or being a hypocrite There isn’t a single organization that doesn’t do marketing one way or another (just putting a sign outside a restaurant is marketing, maybe you also consider that to be tricking people and playing games?) Pretty sure that without marketing you would either not have a job or not get paid So you are actually fine with marketing making you money, just as long as you are not the one doing it. Sounds like denying reality Btw, marketing != advertising, and 95% of people don’t even have the time, budget or large enough audience to do any kind of A/B testing
    - 4gotunameagain 3y ago

I'd rather be unemployed and live off charity kitchen soups than engage in these juvenile games. As a society we need to find a way to stop rewarding slyness and trickery (aka marketing)

arek_nawo 3y ago

I want to think of marketing as a way of providing valuable content and explaining why your product might be just what the consumer needs (potentially helping them with their problems). What's described above really doesn't fit into this view, but is definitely how I've seen people "play the game". ChatGPT-generated fluff, copied content, and the same tips & tricks, inspirational stories, etc. you see repurposed all the time on different platforms - especially LinkedIn. I hope marketing can be good and value-adding but, the way it's going right now, we're due for a change.

nickfromseattle 3y ago

>I'd rather be unemployed and live off charity kitchen soups than engage in these juvenile games. What if you replaced the word marketing with attention? Would you rather live of soup kitchens than have the attention of your ideal customers?

4gotunameagain 3y ago
The competition of legal entities for our attention seems to be one of the major reasons of chronic stress and mental illness in the west, so the answer is yes.
austinjp 3y ago
This conflates the ends and the means. They're different and both deserve consideration. Some reading: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_end_justifies_the_means https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_end_justifies_the_mean... https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_the-business-ethics-workshop/s06-theories-of-duties-and-rights-.html https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_the-business-ethics-work...
latexr 3y ago
> What if you replaced the word marketing with attention? Then you would be making a different argument. Marketing and attention are not the same thing: the former is one means to the latter. Marketing is grabbing attention by force, which could be considered unethical; attention by itself can be consensual and organic.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

skwee357 3y ago

I’m with you my friend. I’d rather go back to be employed and post helpful stuff to my blog, than try to promote my products using click bait tactics on social media. It’s funny, but when you post an obvious click bait to Reddit/hn everybody is like “this is clickbait, the author is trying to sell you his coaching”, etc. But then, when you say you don’t want to participate in algorithm hunger games, everyone is like “no, you won’t succeed. You need to shove your products down the throat if your readers”. :puke:

skwee357 3y ago
Here is a good example. About 2.5 months ago, I’ve shared a blog post I wrote, here on HN [1]. The blog post was authentic with a simple purpose: (1) I like to write, and (2) I believed writing is beneficial to everyone. I share all my blog posts here, none of them performed as well as this one (check my profile if you want). Seeing the success and the traffic this post generated, I crafted a quick form to offer FREE coaching session. Free as Linux free. I gave 2.5 hours of my time for free. In exchange, I asked my mentees for testimonials. A fair transaction I guess. It’s a great way to build my brand. I put a small, non intrusive banner on my blog, with a message of free coaching session (the same banner now promotes my book). It’s not a pop up that jumps when you scroll to the bottom, it’s not a JavaScript scripts that pops up when you close the tab. It’s a ~30px, non sticky bar at the top, the goes away with a little scroll. Top comment on HN? My post is cringy and I’m yet another “coaching bro” that promotes his stuff. :shrug: [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659166
- nico 3y ago
  So what? You need to grow a thicker skin Building an audience and selling a product is in large part about rejection. You will get tons of comments like that. Haters are going to hate, no matter what you do Yes, it hurts, but just keep going. If the top comment represented everyone’s sentiment, your post wouldn’t have gotten 200+ upvotes (congrats by the way, not an easy feat)
  - skwee357 3y ago

nico 3y ago

It’s not juvenile games, it’s hard work. If it was easy games everyone would be raking it in If anything, the juvenile thing to do is to look at reality the way it is and deny it because it doesn’t fit our personal world view I get it, we’d love a world in which we could just do our best work and everyone could see it and recognize it But reality is that people are thinking about themselves and are not searching for what we are building. How would they ever find out about what we do if we are not telling them? You have a serious misunderstanding of what marketing is if you think it’s slyness and trickery Of course I’m not going to convince you otherwise, but I think it might help you to actually do research, read a marketing book and talk to people in marketing to understand what it really is

4gotunameagain 3y ago
Nobody said that juvenile games cannot be hard work. And yes, I do believe that most smart people can "rake it in" if they decide to play this game. You mention deny reality. Reality is formed by our actions. Adherence to such systems and the playing of juvenile games ensures their perpetuation. I shall not contribute to what I think is the wrong way to go. And yes, marketing is slyness and trickery. 95% of marketing is A/B ad and layout testing. Or shall we consider the great, historical marketing successes such as promoting cigarettes as healthy, or breakfast cereal ?
- nico 3y ago
  At this point you are either just trolling or being a hypocrite There isn’t a single organization that doesn’t do marketing one way or another (just putting a sign outside a restaurant is marketing, maybe you also consider that to be tricking people and playing games?) Pretty sure that without marketing you would either not have a job or not get paid So you are actually fine with marketing making you money, just as long as you are not the one doing it. Sounds like denying reality Btw, marketing != advertising, and 95% of people don’t even have the time, budget or large enough audience to do any kind of A/B testing
  - 4gotunameagain 3y ago