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Are people on HN really that cynical to say that autonomous logic can't navigate a highway? These trucks are gonna be used for depot to depot transfers with hu

Are people on HN really that cynical to say that autonomous logic can't navigate a highway? These trucks are gonna be used for depot to depot transfers with human drivers taking over for urban / last mile destinations.

lelanthran 3y ago
Actually, we're cynical enough to know that all software has bugs, and new software has more bugs than old software. How about, before you approve a bill for human-less autonomous driving, you first use the software with human oversight until the software is old.
janosdebugs 3y ago
A truck has a huge amount of kinetic energy and when accidents happen they are usuallly not pretty. Couple that with the fact that US trucks AFAIK are not required to have several safety features required elsewhere in the world, such as the underrun protection (metal bars) and that self-driving technology is far from proven at scale, maybe it's prudent to be a little bit careful. Edit: after a quick Google, Embark Trucks[1] claims that they are the first to have driven 100k miles. That's a factor of 10 less than what Waymo claims to have driven. And there will be smaller outfits that will want to cut corners to get a piece of the pie. [1] https://embarktrucks.com/ https://embarktrucks.com/
- hparadiz 3y ago
  Assertions about safety are irrelevant. This is not what this law is addressing. Furthermore anyone who has used even automatic lane tracking knows their concentration falls off rapidly when they aren't actually driving so a "safety" driver is a misnomer since it's likely in the event of an accident they won't realize in time. You're just adding another victim if there is an accident at all.
- harles 3y ago
  Waymo has driven 20m+ autonomous miles btw. [0] The 1 million mile number appears to be rides with external passengers, but the first sources I found lead to dead links, so who knows. Anyways, quite a difference. I’m not sure where the threshold should be set for proving safety. I recall the number for provable safety being something like 20bn+ miles, so no one is close if it’s set there. [0]: https://waymo.com/waymo-driver/ https://waymo.com/waymo-driver/
sharts 3y ago
It's not cynical. It's realistic. This is a disaster waiting to happen. And a foreseeable one.
- hparadiz 3y ago
  Every single day there are millions of people using the self driving features on various vehicles with zero issues. I don't really understand what you want here. If you claim that a person in one of these vehicles will increase safety I am sceptical. Concentration falls off drastically when you're not actively driving.
  - jeffreygoesto 3y ago
    It is the other way round actually. There are no reports from L2 (and there are no other systems in the field in numbers) because people take over before something happens. If the drivers would not have been there, we'd see all those accidents.
    - Schiendelman 3y ago
      I’ve been curious about this - has there been some analysis?
      - jeffreygoesto 3y ago
        You can't count what is not reported. There are a number of near misses on YouTube, most from FSD. What was reported were i.e. the incidents mentioned in https://apnews.com/article/self-driving-car-crash-data-ae87cadec79966a9ba56e99b4110b8d6 https://apnews.com/article/self-driving-car-crash-data-ae87c...
        Schiendelman 3y ago
        Yeah, this isn’t really useful. :(
onetokeoverthe 3y ago
[dead]
AndyMcConachie 3y ago
I'm cynical/experienced enough to know that the USA is run by oligarchs who don't give a shit about normal people. This results in regulations regarding safety to be written in a business friendly, and not people friendly, manner.

lelanthran 3y ago

Actually, we're cynical enough to know that all software has bugs, and new software has more bugs than old software. How about, before you approve a bill for human-less autonomous driving, you first use the software with human oversight until the software is old.

janosdebugs 3y ago

A truck has a huge amount of kinetic energy and when accidents happen they are usuallly not pretty. Couple that with the fact that US trucks AFAIK are not required to have several safety features required elsewhere in the world, such as the underrun protection (metal bars) and that self-driving technology is far from proven at scale, maybe it's prudent to be a little bit careful. Edit: after a quick Google, Embark Trucks[1] claims that they are the first to have driven 100k miles. That's a factor of 10 less than what Waymo claims to have driven. And there will be smaller outfits that will want to cut corners to get a piece of the pie. [1] https://embarktrucks.com/ https://embarktrucks.com/

hparadiz 3y ago
Assertions about safety are irrelevant. This is not what this law is addressing. Furthermore anyone who has used even automatic lane tracking knows their concentration falls off rapidly when they aren't actually driving so a "safety" driver is a misnomer since it's likely in the event of an accident they won't realize in time. You're just adding another victim if there is an accident at all.
harles 3y ago
Waymo has driven 20m+ autonomous miles btw. [0] The 1 million mile number appears to be rides with external passengers, but the first sources I found lead to dead links, so who knows. Anyways, quite a difference. I’m not sure where the threshold should be set for proving safety. I recall the number for provable safety being something like 20bn+ miles, so no one is close if it’s set there. [0]: https://waymo.com/waymo-driver/ https://waymo.com/waymo-driver/

sharts 3y ago

It's not cynical. It's realistic. This is a disaster waiting to happen. And a foreseeable one.

hparadiz 3y ago
Every single day there are millions of people using the self driving features on various vehicles with zero issues. I don't really understand what you want here. If you claim that a person in one of these vehicles will increase safety I am sceptical. Concentration falls off drastically when you're not actively driving.
- jeffreygoesto 3y ago
  It is the other way round actually. There are no reports from L2 (and there are no other systems in the field in numbers) because people take over before something happens. If the drivers would not have been there, we'd see all those accidents.
  - Schiendelman 3y ago
    I’ve been curious about this - has there been some analysis?
    - jeffreygoesto 3y ago
      You can't count what is not reported. There are a number of near misses on YouTube, most from FSD. What was reported were i.e. the incidents mentioned in https://apnews.com/article/self-driving-car-crash-data-ae87cadec79966a9ba56e99b4110b8d6 https://apnews.com/article/self-driving-car-crash-data-ae87c...
      - Schiendelman 3y ago
        Yeah, this isn’t really useful. :(

onetokeoverthe 3y ago

[dead]

AndyMcConachie 3y ago

I'm cynical/experienced enough to know that the USA is run by oligarchs who don't give a shit about normal people. This results in regulations regarding safety to be written in a business friendly, and not people friendly, manner.