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I can completely empathize with this story - I have been in this situation both as a writer, and as an engineer ("what do you think of this app idea?"). But I

I can completely empathize with this story - I have been in this situation both as a writer, and as an engineer ("what do you think of this app idea?"). But I will say, the feedback: > He was way more interested in telling his one story than in being a writer. It was like buying all the parts to a car and starting to build it before learning the basics of auto mechanics. You’ll learn a lot along the way, I said, but you’ll never have a car that runs. is not as considerate as the author thinks it is. It's correct, but it would also be pretty brutal to hear, because it discounts the fact that this person's poor work was still a lot of work for them. It doesn't validate the effort. I don't think the problem is that people think screenwriting is easy. They think it's hard, they put a lot of work into it, after all -- they just also think they succeeded. So I think a kinder way to put this would be something like: "You have a great sense of enthusiasm for the story and you have clearly put a lot of effort into it. What I recommend as your next step is that you work on refining this into a form that matches the expectations of people who professionally read scripts. You can do that by attending X class, or Y workshop, or reading Z books/scripts/whatever. Mostly, you can do it by reading lots of scripts, and writing even more - so I encourage you to keep writing!" That is, tell them the exact same thing, but in a way which doesn't also imply 'you have failed at this,' and instead says 'you can succeed at this, but you haven't yet, there's more to do.' This absolutely could still fail - honestly, the acquaintance in the story sounds like a bit too much of a dick to get the message. And maybe it isn't true - maybe this person will never become a good writer. In all probability, that's what'll happen. But there's no reason to slam the door shut.

kstenerud 3y ago
My experience with people like this has been that they have a "yes, but" to everything you say; some reason that makes them special and not subject to the laws of the domain. If they haven't put the work in to become craftsmen, it means that they don't want to (they want to BE a craftsman, not work to become one). After this situation has happened enough, you eventually realize that brutal honesty really is the most humane approach, because otherwise they just aren't going to listen, and it'll be one long, unpleasant train wreck.
- madrox 3y ago
  In my 20s, I knew people like this. These were the people that abandoned their craft before they hit 30. I don't know if I agree that brutal honesty is the most humane, but it will certainly save you time on a hopeless endeavor because they'll stop coming to you for dopamine hits.
satisfice 3y ago
I like your answer.
madrox 3y ago
As the author said, "If someone can talk you out of being a writer, you’re not a writer." By corollary, I'd say if you need or expect consideration from someone you're asking for feedback from, you're not really asking for feedback. As the author puts it, you're asking for a pat on the head. Consideration is always nice, but if I didn't get it from someone who was giving (free) candid advice I wouldn't call them a dick for it.
- ivraatiems 3y ago
  > By corollary, I'd say if you need or expect consideration from someone you're asking for feedback from, you're not really asking for feedback. I don't agree with this statement. Being reasonably considerate and empathetic is a mandatory requirement of all human interaction, it is not optional just because you are in the position of being asked for something. It's not "a pat on the head" to be helpful and not insulting. Everyone has the right to be treated decently provided their behavior is minimally decent. Asking someone to do something for you is not sufficiently indecent to earn a rude response. Further, if your goal is to make an impression on someone where they agree with and believe the point you're making, being an asshole to them is unlikely to do it. This story is a case in point - the person thought he was being rude and disengaged, and did not take his advice. To be clear, I am not saying the author of this piece was intentionally being rude. Just that it makes a lot of sense, from the outside, why he came across that way given what he said.
  - madrox 3y ago
    Believe me, I'm all for living in a more considerate and empathetic society. However, I think calling it "a mandatory requirement of all human interaction" is not true and is the seed of the paradox of tolerance. As the author says, "you put me in this spot where my only option is to acquiesce to your demands or be the bad guy."
    - ivraatiems 3y ago
      The thing is, I don't agree with that second statement of the author's, either. You're not a "bad guy" for having boundaries (or because one guy you barely know thinks you are). Saying "I'm sorry, I just can't mix my professional and personal life like that, it's a rule I have for myself and it's nothing about you personally," is totally reasonable! If you behave reasonably and empathetically, and someone takes issue with it, they're the one with the problem, not you. By behaving tolerantly, you make the other person's intolerance more obvious. (Though again, like I said, not blaming the author. He clearly tried pretty hard to do the right thing here.)
yowzadave 3y ago
> You have a great sense of enthusiasm for the story and you have clearly put a lot of effort into it Any reasonably acute listener will hear this as condescension: “Oh, you worked so hard, bless your heart…”. I don’t think word-smithing the feedback to make it gentler really helps, because people (even bad writers) can see through bullshit. Better to treat the other person as deserving of honesty.
nunez 3y ago
> You have a great sense of enthusiasm for the story and you have clearly put a lot of effort into it. What I recommend as your next step is that you work on refining this into a form that matches the expectations of people who professionally read scripts. You can do that by attending X class, or Y workshop, or reading Z books/scripts/whatever. Mostly, you can do it by reading lots of scripts, and writing even more - so I encourage you to keep writing!" I see what you're trying to do here (soften absolutely brutal feedback), but I personally hate that style. Trying to be candid about feedback that is very much not candid is dishonest and gives its receiver false hope that might be unwarranted. Also, feedback like this is unclear. If I received this feedback, I would be thinking "Was my piece good, but could be better if I take classes? Or did they hate it? If they hated it, why aren't they telling me?" Just say the fucking thing. It's just like layoff or application rejection emails, or announcements that something is going up in price. Nobody cares about how "we thought you had potential, but" or "as a work family, we sometimes need to make tough decisions" or "look at how much value we've provided over the years." Everyone knows that something bad's about to happen. Just say the fucking thing.

kstenerud 3y ago

My experience with people like this has been that they have a "yes, but" to everything you say; some reason that makes them special and not subject to the laws of the domain. If they haven't put the work in to become craftsmen, it means that they don't want to (they want to BE a craftsman, not work to become one). After this situation has happened enough, you eventually realize that brutal honesty really is the most humane approach, because otherwise they just aren't going to listen, and it'll be one long, unpleasant train wreck.

madrox 3y ago
In my 20s, I knew people like this. These were the people that abandoned their craft before they hit 30. I don't know if I agree that brutal honesty is the most humane, but it will certainly save you time on a hopeless endeavor because they'll stop coming to you for dopamine hits.

satisfice 3y ago

I like your answer.

madrox 3y ago

As the author said, "If someone can talk you out of being a writer, you’re not a writer." By corollary, I'd say if you need or expect consideration from someone you're asking for feedback from, you're not really asking for feedback. As the author puts it, you're asking for a pat on the head. Consideration is always nice, but if I didn't get it from someone who was giving (free) candid advice I wouldn't call them a dick for it.

ivraatiems 3y ago
> By corollary, I'd say if you need or expect consideration from someone you're asking for feedback from, you're not really asking for feedback. I don't agree with this statement. Being reasonably considerate and empathetic is a mandatory requirement of all human interaction, it is not optional just because you are in the position of being asked for something. It's not "a pat on the head" to be helpful and not insulting. Everyone has the right to be treated decently provided their behavior is minimally decent. Asking someone to do something for you is not sufficiently indecent to earn a rude response. Further, if your goal is to make an impression on someone where they agree with and believe the point you're making, being an asshole to them is unlikely to do it. This story is a case in point - the person thought he was being rude and disengaged, and did not take his advice. To be clear, I am not saying the author of this piece was intentionally being rude. Just that it makes a lot of sense, from the outside, why he came across that way given what he said.
- madrox 3y ago
  Believe me, I'm all for living in a more considerate and empathetic society. However, I think calling it "a mandatory requirement of all human interaction" is not true and is the seed of the paradox of tolerance. As the author says, "you put me in this spot where my only option is to acquiesce to your demands or be the bad guy."
  - ivraatiems 3y ago
    The thing is, I don't agree with that second statement of the author's, either. You're not a "bad guy" for having boundaries (or because one guy you barely know thinks you are). Saying "I'm sorry, I just can't mix my professional and personal life like that, it's a rule I have for myself and it's nothing about you personally," is totally reasonable! If you behave reasonably and empathetically, and someone takes issue with it, they're the one with the problem, not you. By behaving tolerantly, you make the other person's intolerance more obvious. (Though again, like I said, not blaming the author. He clearly tried pretty hard to do the right thing here.)

yowzadave 3y ago

> You have a great sense of enthusiasm for the story and you have clearly put a lot of effort into it Any reasonably acute listener will hear this as condescension: “Oh, you worked so hard, bless your heart…”. I don’t think word-smithing the feedback to make it gentler really helps, because people (even bad writers) can see through bullshit. Better to treat the other person as deserving of honesty.

nunez 3y ago

> You have a great sense of enthusiasm for the story and you have clearly put a lot of effort into it. What I recommend as your next step is that you work on refining this into a form that matches the expectations of people who professionally read scripts. You can do that by attending X class, or Y workshop, or reading Z books/scripts/whatever. Mostly, you can do it by reading lots of scripts, and writing even more - so I encourage you to keep writing!" I see what you're trying to do here (soften absolutely brutal feedback), but I personally hate that style. Trying to be candid about feedback that is very much not candid is dishonest and gives its receiver false hope that might be unwarranted. Also, feedback like this is unclear. If I received this feedback, I would be thinking "Was my piece good, but could be better if I take classes? Or did they hate it? If they hated it, why aren't they telling me?" Just say the fucking thing. It's just like layoff or application rejection emails, or announcements that something is going up in price. Nobody cares about how "we thought you had potential, but" or "as a work family, we sometimes need to make tough decisions" or "look at how much value we've provided over the years." Everyone knows that something bad's about to happen. Just say the fucking thing.