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The only real alternative is Matrix. Others are saying how discord has managed hosting and it's free but there is matrix.org and managed matrix hosting: https:/

by _8j50 3y ago

The only real alternative is Matrix. Others are saying how discord has managed hosting and it's free but there is matrix.org and managed matrix hosting: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/hosting/ https://matrix.org/ecosystem/hosting/ In my opinion Matrix sucks as does lemmy and mastodon. However just saying that alone is such a taboo on HN and anywhere in the tech bubble. On top if everything else, discord is very usable and pleasant to use. It does not intimidate new comers either. Even Slack doesn't hold up to discord on performance. Let me give you a first hand empircal evidence on performance. I am on like 4-6 Slack workspaces and I had to download the desktop app because any browser I tried it with just chokes itself and thr system to death. It is managable now but still a hog. Element is so bad, even after upgrading to 32G ram and nvme it is still unusable with the number of rooms I am in, just doesn't scale. I tried Cinny which doesn't even work at all and all the clients are playing catch up with the messed up rapidly changing api to the point they are all buggy or lacking major features that make it hard to talk to people who use the full featured element. Discord on the other hand, I am on 4 spaces like Slack but I have it all on one tab and I even forget that it is open. And companies have provider me good support on discord. So long as you don't use freaking email I am happy but it looks like discord or telegram are the only usable alternatives. Oh, and signal is crap too for a whole other host of reasons. The whole making a cult out if these products/platforms thing isn't working out imho.

seabass-labrax 3y ago
> ...all the [Matrix] clients are playing catch up with the messed up rapidly changing api... This to me is the crux of the issue! The core data model of Matrix is clean, elegant and simple. I can summarise it in a sentence: a series of Events modifies resources in a Room. The full Matrix API is anything but clean, elegant and simple, however. Sadly, the extent of the API's idiosyncrasies means there is no real alternative to Element, and this is from someone who has on multiple occasions tried a two-digit number of Matrix clients on a a variety of devices. Nonetheless, I will continue to use it while I wait for an ActivityPub-based chat program to be made! :)
- Arathorn 3y ago
  The Matrix CS API is super simple (although i’m biased having helped design it), and the fact that there are a large range of clients these days which frankly outperform historical Element while having feature parity - eg FluffyChat, Cinny, Nheko, NeoChat etc while using entirely independent stacks (flutter/dart, c++/qt, KMP etc) suggests the API’s ok. Meanwhile Element X shows concretely that Element’s problems are getting fixed too: https://element.io/blog/element-x-ignition https://element.io/blog/element-x-ignition
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    Please don't take my parent comment as a disparagement of your laudable and much-needed effort in this space. I think you and the Element/New Vector team are doing a great job at developing the technology. But if you put aside the federation, VoIP and end-to-end encryption features, Matrix doesn't look great in comparison to other 'platforms' specifically for the user experience of getting a message from A to B. Even though Matrix is an open protocol, it doesn't even do particularly well for availability of client applications - there are better third-party apps available for various social networks and chat platforms, held to ransom though they are by their centralised overlords. Ironically, after seeing some of the amazing GNOME clients for Reddit and Twitter, for a brief moment I even found myself tempted to register for them just to use the GNOME app! Fractal, for instance, does not elicit a feeling nearly as positive for me, and I've tried multiple times to set it up. I'm indeed excited about Element X - but it's only available for proprietary operating systems. That's not particularly friendly for OSS communities either, although admittedly miles ahead of Discord. If there's one thing I would suggest that Matrix does differently, it would be to apply the same philosophy to the whole Matrix ecosystem as Element X: slow down for a year, focus on the polishing the basic functionality of federated chat, and let the third-party clients catch up. I'm proud to have a Matrix ID (@seabass:fosdem.org) and will use Matrix in favour of any other chat system, but it has a long way to go before I will be able to persuade my 'normal' friends and family to join me.

by _8j50 3y ago

seabass-labrax 3y ago

> ...all the [Matrix] clients are playing catch up with the messed up rapidly changing api... This to me is the crux of the issue! The core data model of Matrix is clean, elegant and simple. I can summarise it in a sentence: a series of Events modifies resources in a Room. The full Matrix API is anything but clean, elegant and simple, however. Sadly, the extent of the API's idiosyncrasies means there is no real alternative to Element, and this is from someone who has on multiple occasions tried a two-digit number of Matrix clients on a a variety of devices. Nonetheless, I will continue to use it while I wait for an ActivityPub-based chat program to be made! :)

Arathorn 3y ago
The Matrix CS API is super simple (although i’m biased having helped design it), and the fact that there are a large range of clients these days which frankly outperform historical Element while having feature parity - eg FluffyChat, Cinny, Nheko, NeoChat etc while using entirely independent stacks (flutter/dart, c++/qt, KMP etc) suggests the API’s ok. Meanwhile Element X shows concretely that Element’s problems are getting fixed too: https://element.io/blog/element-x-ignition https://element.io/blog/element-x-ignition
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  Please don't take my parent comment as a disparagement of your laudable and much-needed effort in this space. I think you and the Element/New Vector team are doing a great job at developing the technology. But if you put aside the federation, VoIP and end-to-end encryption features, Matrix doesn't look great in comparison to other 'platforms' specifically for the user experience of getting a message from A to B. Even though Matrix is an open protocol, it doesn't even do particularly well for availability of client applications - there are better third-party apps available for various social networks and chat platforms, held to ransom though they are by their centralised overlords. Ironically, after seeing some of the amazing GNOME clients for Reddit and Twitter, for a brief moment I even found myself tempted to register for them just to use the GNOME app! Fractal, for instance, does not elicit a feeling nearly as positive for me, and I've tried multiple times to set it up. I'm indeed excited about Element X - but it's only available for proprietary operating systems. That's not particularly friendly for OSS communities either, although admittedly miles ahead of Discord. If there's one thing I would suggest that Matrix does differently, it would be to apply the same philosophy to the whole Matrix ecosystem as Element X: slow down for a year, focus on the polishing the basic functionality of federated chat, and let the third-party clients catch up. I'm proud to have a Matrix ID (@seabass:fosdem.org) and will use Matrix in favour of any other chat system, but it has a long way to go before I will be able to persuade my 'normal' friends and family to join me.