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I quickly scanned the article, so I might have missed this, but can someone explain how sites like StubHub get away with what they do? As soon as I found out ab

I quickly scanned the article, so I might have missed this, but can someone explain how sites like StubHub get away with what they do? As soon as I found out about them, I immediately thought "aren't these people just scalpers that offer tickets on the internet instead of standing out in front of venues?" If the argument is that they're not scalpers, they're resellers, then I'd like to try selling some concert tickets in a parking lot and see what happens if I made the same claim.

TylerE 3y ago
Scalping is legal in most jurisdictions, sometimes with restrictions (“no selling within 1000ft of the venue for more than 20% over face”.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  As it should be, without restrictions. Basically First Sale doctrine. If I buy something, I own it and should be able to sell it at market price.
  - driscoll42 3y ago
    There's a significant difference between buying something and reselling, and then having bots buying hundreds/thousands and reselling.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      Not really. The demand is what it is, and the supply of tickets is fixed. That sets the price, not the number of different people selling.
      - zarzavat 3y ago
        OK but the tickets are going to different people. In most cases (music, sports) you want your tickets going to your best fans because the energy of the crowd improves the performance. We’re not selling wheat futures here. If the tickets instead go to rich people who may or may not show up, it could harm the event.
        codelikeawolf 3y ago
        You're right, the future looks grim. Who knows how many layers of the reseller parfait you have to go through just to get a ticket? At some point it becomes prohibitively expensive and there won't be enough people that can afford to attend events. I wonder how much of this could be alleviated by selling a certain percentage of tickets at the box office only? I worked in operations for a pretty large concert venue several years ago, and the Jonas Brothers were going to play there (this was at their peak). I remember a good chunk of tickets were only sold at the box office and there was a limit per person (maybe 5 or 6)? I know it's annoying to drive somewhere and wait in line for hours, but I'm sure there are folks out there that would prefer to do that instead of paying a 500% markup on the original ticket price.
        TylerE 3y ago
        Ironically, tiered pricing to cut out the scalpers it exactly what got Springsteen so much blow back. The artists have simply decided to sell $1000 tickets instead of $200 tickets that get scalped for $1000
        xp84 3y ago
        It’s the correct move economically, why the hell should scalpers earn that $800 for being parasites, but people are very economically-illiterate so they’ll always see that move as greed.
      - codelikeawolf 3y ago
        Very true, but very annoying for the person that wants to attend the concert. You can pretty much flush your chances of getting tickets directly from Ticketmaster right down the toilet.
      - qup 3y ago
        The price is fixed. The scalpers then create a secondary market where there is a supply and demand situation like you talk about.
  - losteric 3y ago
    The concert is the product. A ticket is one approach for artists to control access to the limited experienc, typically while maintaining substantial equity and equality of access. Of course profit maximization is not the only (or even primary) goal, that's what makes this such a hard problem. If it were, ticket sales would be trivially solved - just auction each seat to the highest bider, close biding near the concert date and prevent any transfers. Of course that's a terrible idea.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    The First Sale doctrine is fine, hoarding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarding_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarding_(economics)) and price gouging not so much. Rights come with responsibilities. Maybe I can buy up a pallet of toilet paper in the middle of a pandemic, but people would be right to think I was a total piece of shit if I did. Society's tolerance for parasites who do that kind of thing has a breaking point and when the people being negatively impacted get fed up enough to take action I'll have no sympathy for anyone who seeks to make others miserable just so that they can profit off of their suffering.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      That’s the sophomoric take. The only reason you had the opportunity to buy a pallet during a shortage in the first place is due to idiotic “price gouging” laws. During the pandemic the price of toilet paper should have been increased by an order of magnitude at the store level. This would prevent hoarding and it would make sure people who desperately wanted it could get it. Additionally, it would have incentivized producers and sellers to fill demand. Price controls are the equivalent of rations. They don’t solve anything because they remove all of the incentives.
      - autoexec 3y ago
        > and it would make sure people who desperately wanted it could get it. I fail to see how making toilet paper cost hundreds or thousands of dollars per roll would ensure that everyone who needed it would be able to get it, since many of those who desperately wanted to wipe their ass were unable to work and going into record amounts of debt just to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. Producers and sellers were already fully incentivized to sell their goods, as they always have been. They know people want their product and will pay them enough that they can turn a profit. There's no reason to turn toilet paper into an luxury item which only the wealthiest people can afford leaving the majority priced out. Price controls and rations have their place. Like all tools, the key to is make sure that they are used correctly.
        3y ago
bombcar 3y ago
They started out as plain scalper marketplaces but now have deals with most venues to give the venue a cut.
- autoexec 3y ago
  So venues take bribes in the from of kickbacks to look the other way when stubhub commits illegal acts? or does stubhub not operate in states where scalping tickets is a crime?
  - Kamq 3y ago
    > to look the other way when stubhub commits illegal acts? Scalping is only illegal in certain jurisdictions (usually state level, iirc). Presumably stubhub intentionally does not operate in those jurisdictions. They could sell to people in those jurisdictions, but you could make people sign a thing saying that they actually bought the tickets from another area. Someone could probably come after them, but there's enough plausible deniability to keep it tied up in court for a while, and nobody is going to do that for low level scalping offenses.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    They probably specifically have deals with the venues to make it not technically scalping, somehow.
conductr 3y ago
Just a theory, and I only scanned the article too, but I think they’ve all learned that this aftermarket stuff is good for their business. At least now that things are digital and have fees attached, because they make money whenever tickets change hands. They get to claim it’s a service as they’re providing liquidity to the market.

TylerE 3y ago

Scalping is legal in most jurisdictions, sometimes with restrictions (“no selling within 1000ft of the venue for more than 20% over face”.

SoftTalker 3y ago
As it should be, without restrictions. Basically First Sale doctrine. If I buy something, I own it and should be able to sell it at market price.
- driscoll42 3y ago
  There's a significant difference between buying something and reselling, and then having bots buying hundreds/thousands and reselling.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Not really. The demand is what it is, and the supply of tickets is fixed. That sets the price, not the number of different people selling.
    - zarzavat 3y ago
      OK but the tickets are going to different people. In most cases (music, sports) you want your tickets going to your best fans because the energy of the crowd improves the performance. We’re not selling wheat futures here. If the tickets instead go to rich people who may or may not show up, it could harm the event.
      - codelikeawolf 3y ago
        You're right, the future looks grim. Who knows how many layers of the reseller parfait you have to go through just to get a ticket? At some point it becomes prohibitively expensive and there won't be enough people that can afford to attend events. I wonder how much of this could be alleviated by selling a certain percentage of tickets at the box office only? I worked in operations for a pretty large concert venue several years ago, and the Jonas Brothers were going to play there (this was at their peak). I remember a good chunk of tickets were only sold at the box office and there was a limit per person (maybe 5 or 6)? I know it's annoying to drive somewhere and wait in line for hours, but I'm sure there are folks out there that would prefer to do that instead of paying a 500% markup on the original ticket price.
        TylerE 3y ago
        Ironically, tiered pricing to cut out the scalpers it exactly what got Springsteen so much blow back. The artists have simply decided to sell $1000 tickets instead of $200 tickets that get scalped for $1000
        xp84 3y ago
        It’s the correct move economically, why the hell should scalpers earn that $800 for being parasites, but people are very economically-illiterate so they’ll always see that move as greed.
    - codelikeawolf 3y ago
      Very true, but very annoying for the person that wants to attend the concert. You can pretty much flush your chances of getting tickets directly from Ticketmaster right down the toilet.
    - qup 3y ago
      The price is fixed. The scalpers then create a secondary market where there is a supply and demand situation like you talk about.
- losteric 3y ago
  The concert is the product. A ticket is one approach for artists to control access to the limited experienc, typically while maintaining substantial equity and equality of access. Of course profit maximization is not the only (or even primary) goal, that's what makes this such a hard problem. If it were, ticket sales would be trivially solved - just auction each seat to the highest bider, close biding near the concert date and prevent any transfers. Of course that's a terrible idea.
- autoexec 3y ago
  The First Sale doctrine is fine, hoarding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarding_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarding_(economics)) and price gouging not so much. Rights come with responsibilities. Maybe I can buy up a pallet of toilet paper in the middle of a pandemic, but people would be right to think I was a total piece of shit if I did. Society's tolerance for parasites who do that kind of thing has a breaking point and when the people being negatively impacted get fed up enough to take action I'll have no sympathy for anyone who seeks to make others miserable just so that they can profit off of their suffering.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    That’s the sophomoric take. The only reason you had the opportunity to buy a pallet during a shortage in the first place is due to idiotic “price gouging” laws. During the pandemic the price of toilet paper should have been increased by an order of magnitude at the store level. This would prevent hoarding and it would make sure people who desperately wanted it could get it. Additionally, it would have incentivized producers and sellers to fill demand. Price controls are the equivalent of rations. They don’t solve anything because they remove all of the incentives.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      > and it would make sure people who desperately wanted it could get it. I fail to see how making toilet paper cost hundreds or thousands of dollars per roll would ensure that everyone who needed it would be able to get it, since many of those who desperately wanted to wipe their ass were unable to work and going into record amounts of debt just to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. Producers and sellers were already fully incentivized to sell their goods, as they always have been. They know people want their product and will pay them enough that they can turn a profit. There's no reason to turn toilet paper into an luxury item which only the wealthiest people can afford leaving the majority priced out. Price controls and rations have their place. Like all tools, the key to is make sure that they are used correctly.
      - 3y ago

bombcar 3y ago

They started out as plain scalper marketplaces but now have deals with most venues to give the venue a cut.

autoexec 3y ago
So venues take bribes in the from of kickbacks to look the other way when stubhub commits illegal acts? or does stubhub not operate in states where scalping tickets is a crime?
- Kamq 3y ago
  > to look the other way when stubhub commits illegal acts? Scalping is only illegal in certain jurisdictions (usually state level, iirc). Presumably stubhub intentionally does not operate in those jurisdictions. They could sell to people in those jurisdictions, but you could make people sign a thing saying that they actually bought the tickets from another area. Someone could probably come after them, but there's enough plausible deniability to keep it tied up in court for a while, and nobody is going to do that for low level scalping offenses.
- bombcar 3y ago
  They probably specifically have deals with the venues to make it not technically scalping, somehow.

conductr 3y ago

Just a theory, and I only scanned the article too, but I think they’ve all learned that this aftermarket stuff is good for their business. At least now that things are digital and have fees attached, because they make money whenever tickets change hands. They get to claim it’s a service as they’re providing liquidity to the market.