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While box jellyfish are fairly simple creatures when compared to mammals, I’m waiting for the inevitable study “announcing” that animals have their own thoughts

While box jellyfish are fairly simple creatures when compared to mammals, I’m waiting for the inevitable study “announcing” that animals have their own thoughts, dreams and emotions. Something people who’ve been around animals will respond with “duh”.

ben_w 3y ago
Edit: I clearly wasn't clear, this comment is focussing on the question as applied specifically to box jellyfish, not animals in general. Emotions (at least the physiological part, not the qualia) wouldn't surprise me at all even for the simplest of neural structures. Might even be a pre-neural thing, given plants have a transmissible chemical signal to make other nearby plants more bitter in response to being eaten. Dreams and thoughts? I won't say "no", but I will say that if you can prove it, then we probably have to start caring about the welfare of even very small AI such as OCR systems made by second year university students encountering MNIST and python for the first time.
- justrealist 3y ago
  Not commenting on the ethical implications, but it's fairly obvious that dogs dream. We could tell our dog was chasing squirrels in his sleep by the running and yelping.
  - qup 3y ago
    Incredibly obvious. One could say we can't prove it, but it's a fact and I don't need it proven scientifically. Anyone who had been around my dog would know it. I have no idea if all dogs are the same, in that they act out their dreams--but mine does, and it's unmistakable.
    - pierat 3y ago
      I've seen my cat wake up startled, and hissing and fur straight up, because of a nightmare. She saw us, and knew she was alright.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- interstice 3y ago
  Most mammals clearly dream, they even do the twitchy thing in their sleep. Has no one done eeg studies or is that not considered proof?
  - interstice 3y ago
    Just looked this up, all mammals and some birds experience REM sleep
  - conradev 3y ago
    They have: > "What we've basically found is that dogs dream doggy things," Coren said. "So, pointers will point at dream birds, and Dobermans will chase dream burglars. The dream pattern in dogs seems to be very similar to the dream pattern in humans." https://www.livescience.com/53743-dog-dreams.html https://www.livescience.com/53743-dog-dreams.html
- thfuran 3y ago
  An actual neuron is far more complex than those in an ANN. I really don't think it follows that if an animal with a similar number of neurons or synapses has some quality related to their brain, so does the ANN.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    While true, at present I have no reason to think the extra complexity is important in any way that matters.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      Why would you think it doesn't matter? It seems rather unlikely that a major organ would consistently retain a whole lot of useless complexity and functionality across a huge range of animals.
      - ben_w 3y ago
        The brain is organic and needs to keep itself alive as well as processing data, and it processes and conveys data by alternating between electrical and chemical signals; chemistry in general is a high-noise mess. As I don't expect conscious experience to be the result of that mess[0], I expect a digital silicon network to be able to have qualia when it's replicating both the structure of a conscious brain and the simplest parts of the behaviour of the neurones in that structure. [0] but as nobody knows what consciousness is, I can't rule that out.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
Not all animals are equal. While some have their own thoughts and dreams, most don't.
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  Do we have solid evidence or proof of that? Even fish appear to have excellent memories in some cases, ability to recognize individuals of other aquatic species, and they have exceptional environmental awareness. With I was a kid, just about everyone was certain that fish were no different from worms or fruit flies.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    Do we have solid evidence and proof that not all animals are equal? Yeah. Memory can be separate from self-awareness, and that's the thing we need to try and be aware of.
    - uoaei 3y ago
      It's feasible to have thoughts and dreams and also no sense of "I" within them.
      - steve_adams_86 3y ago
        Not only feasible but equally valuable. It’s simply how humans orient their thoughts, and we have no evidence that this has intrinsic value over a being which doesn’t do this.
        PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        You're making an awful lot of assumptions that contradict our scientific understanding of animals. A being without self-awareness would only have thoughts that are basically instinct, i.e. 'need food', and those thoughts are in no way equally valuable to more complex thoughts.

ben_w 3y ago

Edit: I clearly wasn't clear, this comment is focussing on the question as applied specifically to box jellyfish, not animals in general. Emotions (at least the physiological part, not the qualia) wouldn't surprise me at all even for the simplest of neural structures. Might even be a pre-neural thing, given plants have a transmissible chemical signal to make other nearby plants more bitter in response to being eaten. Dreams and thoughts? I won't say "no", but I will say that if you can prove it, then we probably have to start caring about the welfare of even very small AI such as OCR systems made by second year university students encountering MNIST and python for the first time.

justrealist 3y ago
Not commenting on the ethical implications, but it's fairly obvious that dogs dream. We could tell our dog was chasing squirrels in his sleep by the running and yelping.
- qup 3y ago
  Incredibly obvious. One could say we can't prove it, but it's a fact and I don't need it proven scientifically. Anyone who had been around my dog would know it. I have no idea if all dogs are the same, in that they act out their dreams--but mine does, and it's unmistakable.
  - pierat 3y ago
    I've seen my cat wake up startled, and hissing and fur straight up, because of a nightmare. She saw us, and knew she was alright.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
interstice 3y ago
Most mammals clearly dream, they even do the twitchy thing in their sleep. Has no one done eeg studies or is that not considered proof?
- interstice 3y ago
  Just looked this up, all mammals and some birds experience REM sleep
- conradev 3y ago
  They have: > "What we've basically found is that dogs dream doggy things," Coren said. "So, pointers will point at dream birds, and Dobermans will chase dream burglars. The dream pattern in dogs seems to be very similar to the dream pattern in humans." https://www.livescience.com/53743-dog-dreams.html https://www.livescience.com/53743-dog-dreams.html
thfuran 3y ago
An actual neuron is far more complex than those in an ANN. I really don't think it follows that if an animal with a similar number of neurons or synapses has some quality related to their brain, so does the ANN.
- ben_w 3y ago
  While true, at present I have no reason to think the extra complexity is important in any way that matters.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Why would you think it doesn't matter? It seems rather unlikely that a major organ would consistently retain a whole lot of useless complexity and functionality across a huge range of animals.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      The brain is organic and needs to keep itself alive as well as processing data, and it processes and conveys data by alternating between electrical and chemical signals; chemistry in general is a high-noise mess. As I don't expect conscious experience to be the result of that mess[0], I expect a digital silicon network to be able to have qualia when it's replicating both the structure of a conscious brain and the simplest parts of the behaviour of the neurones in that structure. [0] but as nobody knows what consciousness is, I can't rule that out.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

Not all animals are equal. While some have their own thoughts and dreams, most don't.

steve_adams_86 3y ago
Do we have solid evidence or proof of that? Even fish appear to have excellent memories in some cases, ability to recognize individuals of other aquatic species, and they have exceptional environmental awareness. With I was a kid, just about everyone was certain that fish were no different from worms or fruit flies.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  Do we have solid evidence and proof that not all animals are equal? Yeah. Memory can be separate from self-awareness, and that's the thing we need to try and be aware of.
  - uoaei 3y ago
    It's feasible to have thoughts and dreams and also no sense of "I" within them.
    - steve_adams_86 3y ago
      Not only feasible but equally valuable. It’s simply how humans orient their thoughts, and we have no evidence that this has intrinsic value over a being which doesn’t do this.
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        You're making an awful lot of assumptions that contradict our scientific understanding of animals. A being without self-awareness would only have thoughts that are basically instinct, i.e. 'need food', and those thoughts are in no way equally valuable to more complex thoughts.