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One time I outsourced the creation of a simple Wordpress template which I didn't have time to do. I paid $300. Despite being given a pre-cut Photoshop file, t

by tdavis 18y ago

One time I outsourced the creation of a simple Wordpress template which I didn't have time to do. I paid $300. Despite being given a pre-cut Photoshop file, the people could not figure out simple CSS bugs or even create the CSS necessary for the tabs. I spent more time managing them (aka teaching) than it would have taken me to do it, in the end I had to do half of it anyway and this entire sick ordeal took nearly two weeks. My new mantra is "Don't outsource anything the neighbors' 10 year old couldn't complete properly."

swombat 18y ago
That's a good point... I wouldn't consider it wise to try and outsource any complicated technology development to India/Pakistan/etc. However, I would consider doing so to an onshore firm that demonstrates to me that they have a clue. For instance, I know plenty of people who take on consulting work and could deal with your CSS without any problems. Depending on how much work was involved, they might even have been able to do it within $300.
- alecco 18y ago
  Outsourcing to a far away place to a random contractor is looking for trouble. But your generalization is offensive.
  - jm4 18y ago
    What is offensive about that post? Maybe I'm missing something or others are reading too much into it. He says he would not recommend outsourcing to India, Pakistan, etc., but would consider outsourcing to a qualified firm closer to home. This doesn't necessarily imply that he thinks developers in India and Pakistan are a bunch of dopes. In fact, it doesn't imply anything at all except that he prefers not to outsource overseas. We can really only speculate since he doesn't provide any reasons for his opinion, but maybe we should give him a little more credit here before we jump to conclusions and call the post offensive. His opinions could be explained with a variety of reasons like time difference, difficulty in communicating (either long distance phone calls or having to do everything over email) or even possible language barriers. Sometimes when you need a very specific result you need to be careful how you explain this to someone whose native language is different from your own. Even common figures of speech can be taken literally and result in confusion over what is expected. All of these possible hurdles can be alleviated by working with a group closer to home.
    - shard 18y ago
      Maybe I'm reading too much into it, or maybe you missed this point: In response to a post that talked about an outsourced team that didn't even have the technical expertise to handle simple CSS bugs, he said he wouldn't consider outsourcing to India and Pakistan, which implies that those places have the characteristics of not having the technical expertise to handle simple bugs.
      - swombat 18y ago
        Ok, I guess as the original poster of this incendiary comment (?) I can chip in about what I actually meant. I don't think simple CSS bugs are beyond the skills of even the below-average Indian outsourcing shop (though I'm sure some of them fail even on that level, and depending on how finicky you are about your CSS, maybe no one can do it but yourself). However, in my experience, the more complicated the task, the less likely it will be to get done via a simple outsourcing contract. A huge consulting company can successfully outsource very complex things, because they can invest in ensuring they hire quality resources. Someone who has personal contacts with people whom he knows are competent can also do it, because they already know where to find the quality. For the rest of us, though, there is a sea of bad options (the kind that often charge a few dollars an hour) and a few islets of quality. It's very hard to figure out which ones are the good ones, and these islets get smaller the more your task is complicated. Past a certain level of complexity (e.g. "put together a synchronous framework for a tool like Etherpad") you might as well not bother, your chances of hitting land are so low. This is not specific to India or Pakistan, it applies to China just as much. Eastern Europe is less of a problem for me because there are fewer communication barriers. My point, clarified, is then: Outsourcing complex tasks to a remote location with which there are communication difficulties is unlikely to work.
      - deleted 18y ago
        [deleted]
      - jm4 18y ago
        I don't think it's even possible to miss the point I was trying to make more than you already have. I was cautioning against making assumptions about a person who has stated a vague opinion without the reasons for having that opinion. And just like the person I was responding to, you have done exactly that. Some people, based on past experience, expect to be offended and see malice in words where there is none. Sometimes we make connections between others' statement based on our own beliefs. I guess it's just human nature. It's probably easier to ask for some clarification.
  - alex_c 18y ago
    I understand your point, but overuse of the word "offensive" offends me.
    - alecco 18y ago
      There was absolutely no need to name those countries. As somebody said before, the funny thing about racial privilege is how hard it is to see when one is the beneficiary of it.
      - ericb 18y ago
        I'm not sure he was doing anything other than giving an eg for the top offshoring locations that popped into his head, in the same way people refer to "Kleenex" when discussing tissues. I see the emphasis is placed on complicated which the italics certainly support. As you also stated, sending complicated projects to people far away is a challenge regardless of the particular country involved. Please stop looking for excuses to be offended.
        gaius 18y ago
        In the original article most of the bids are from firms located in India.
      - chollida1 18y ago
        Perhaps he's had a bad experience with outsourcing to these countries. If I go to McDonalds and have a bad burger then I'm sure going to remember it. In fact if the topic comes up I'll probably tell people "Don't eat at McDonalds, they make bad burgers". How is stating ones past experience in any way racist?
        shard 18y ago
        If I ran into a black guy on the street and he mugged me then I'm sure going to remember it. In fact if the topic comes up I'll probably tell people "Don't run into black guys, they'll mug you".
- statictype 18y ago
  True, but I don't believe this has anything to do with the company being from any particular region. There are very competent development shops in India and very poor ones as well.
kirse 18y ago
I wholeheartedly agree. After getting several shoddy outsourced projects I've come to adopt the mantra that "if you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself". The individual who created a template for me did a decent job on design, but the CSS was absolutely pitiful and full of many unnecessary and confusing layers... I think this is why large corporations that have detailed processes involving requirements definition etc. do a far better job with getting what they want from outsourced work (as compared to startups). With a 1-2 person company, most of us don't have the time or money to throw together a 50-page whitepaper detailing exactly what is needed.
danw 18y ago
There are some fiendishly good psd to html companies out there that produce good css very quickly. I think psd2html is the one I've used reliably in the past.
- swombat 18y ago
  PSD2HTML cost about $200! That's hardly cheap... I can do it myself for that price...

by tdavis 18y ago

swombat 18y ago

That's a good point... I wouldn't consider it wise to try and outsource any complicated technology development to India/Pakistan/etc. However, I would consider doing so to an onshore firm that demonstrates to me that they have a clue. For instance, I know plenty of people who take on consulting work and could deal with your CSS without any problems. Depending on how much work was involved, they might even have been able to do it within $300.

alecco 18y ago
Outsourcing to a far away place to a random contractor is looking for trouble. But your generalization is offensive.
- jm4 18y ago
  What is offensive about that post? Maybe I'm missing something or others are reading too much into it. He says he would not recommend outsourcing to India, Pakistan, etc., but would consider outsourcing to a qualified firm closer to home. This doesn't necessarily imply that he thinks developers in India and Pakistan are a bunch of dopes. In fact, it doesn't imply anything at all except that he prefers not to outsource overseas. We can really only speculate since he doesn't provide any reasons for his opinion, but maybe we should give him a little more credit here before we jump to conclusions and call the post offensive. His opinions could be explained with a variety of reasons like time difference, difficulty in communicating (either long distance phone calls or having to do everything over email) or even possible language barriers. Sometimes when you need a very specific result you need to be careful how you explain this to someone whose native language is different from your own. Even common figures of speech can be taken literally and result in confusion over what is expected. All of these possible hurdles can be alleviated by working with a group closer to home.
  - shard 18y ago
    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, or maybe you missed this point: In response to a post that talked about an outsourced team that didn't even have the technical expertise to handle simple CSS bugs, he said he wouldn't consider outsourcing to India and Pakistan, which implies that those places have the characteristics of not having the technical expertise to handle simple bugs.
    - swombat 18y ago
      Ok, I guess as the original poster of this incendiary comment (?) I can chip in about what I actually meant. I don't think simple CSS bugs are beyond the skills of even the below-average Indian outsourcing shop (though I'm sure some of them fail even on that level, and depending on how finicky you are about your CSS, maybe no one can do it but yourself). However, in my experience, the more complicated the task, the less likely it will be to get done via a simple outsourcing contract. A huge consulting company can successfully outsource very complex things, because they can invest in ensuring they hire quality resources. Someone who has personal contacts with people whom he knows are competent can also do it, because they already know where to find the quality. For the rest of us, though, there is a sea of bad options (the kind that often charge a few dollars an hour) and a few islets of quality. It's very hard to figure out which ones are the good ones, and these islets get smaller the more your task is complicated. Past a certain level of complexity (e.g. "put together a synchronous framework for a tool like Etherpad") you might as well not bother, your chances of hitting land are so low. This is not specific to India or Pakistan, it applies to China just as much. Eastern Europe is less of a problem for me because there are fewer communication barriers. My point, clarified, is then: Outsourcing complex tasks to a remote location with which there are communication difficulties is unlikely to work.
    - deleted 18y ago
      [deleted]
    - jm4 18y ago
      I don't think it's even possible to miss the point I was trying to make more than you already have. I was cautioning against making assumptions about a person who has stated a vague opinion without the reasons for having that opinion. And just like the person I was responding to, you have done exactly that. Some people, based on past experience, expect to be offended and see malice in words where there is none. Sometimes we make connections between others' statement based on our own beliefs. I guess it's just human nature. It's probably easier to ask for some clarification.
- alex_c 18y ago
  I understand your point, but overuse of the word "offensive" offends me.
  - alecco 18y ago
    There was absolutely no need to name those countries. As somebody said before, the funny thing about racial privilege is how hard it is to see when one is the beneficiary of it.
    - ericb 18y ago
      I'm not sure he was doing anything other than giving an eg for the top offshoring locations that popped into his head, in the same way people refer to "Kleenex" when discussing tissues. I see the emphasis is placed on complicated which the italics certainly support. As you also stated, sending complicated projects to people far away is a challenge regardless of the particular country involved. Please stop looking for excuses to be offended.
      - gaius 18y ago
        In the original article most of the bids are from firms located in India.
    - chollida1 18y ago
      Perhaps he's had a bad experience with outsourcing to these countries. If I go to McDonalds and have a bad burger then I'm sure going to remember it. In fact if the topic comes up I'll probably tell people "Don't eat at McDonalds, they make bad burgers". How is stating ones past experience in any way racist?
      - shard 18y ago
        If I ran into a black guy on the street and he mugged me then I'm sure going to remember it. In fact if the topic comes up I'll probably tell people "Don't run into black guys, they'll mug you".
statictype 18y ago
True, but I don't believe this has anything to do with the company being from any particular region. There are very competent development shops in India and very poor ones as well.

kirse 18y ago

I wholeheartedly agree. After getting several shoddy outsourced projects I've come to adopt the mantra that "if you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself". The individual who created a template for me did a decent job on design, but the CSS was absolutely pitiful and full of many unnecessary and confusing layers... I think this is why large corporations that have detailed processes involving requirements definition etc. do a far better job with getting what they want from outsourced work (as compared to startups). With a 1-2 person company, most of us don't have the time or money to throw together a 50-page whitepaper detailing exactly what is needed.

danw 18y ago

There are some fiendishly good psd to html companies out there that produce good css very quickly. I think psd2html is the one I've used reliably in the past.

swombat 18y ago
PSD2HTML cost about $200! That's hardly cheap... I can do it myself for that price...