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Personally I would love to see the restaurant service model in Australia implemented here in the US: - workers paid a decent wage - tipping not expected - ta

by shw1n 3y ago

Personally I would love to see the restaurant service model in Australia implemented here in the US: - workers paid a decent wage - tipping not expected - tax included in price Aka price you see is the price you pay

wazoox 3y ago
That's basically how it works in Europe too. Actually I'd say it's how it works in civilized countries.
- guiriduro 3y ago
  Its jarring for a european when you visit the US and expect the workers to be compensated a living wage from the ticket/menu price, to find everyone hustling for tips and it being a weird expected thing because their actual wage is low (despite the prices being more aspirational than the food, often.) It also promotes poor hustling behaviour, whether thats non-owner taxi drivers driving like maniacs, or servers pestering every second with dreadful weak coffee you don't want, then expecting a tip.
hotpotamus 3y ago
I wonder - does Australia mandate that?
- jpollock 3y ago
  What part, tax inclusive pricing? Yes. It keeps the populace from realizing how much tax they're paying. :) No tipping? No, that's social. Workers paid a decent wage? I'm pretty sure that servers would claim they're not paid a decent wage. Australian minimum wage is AU$23.23, or USD$15 - USD$16.37 using PPP. Cost of living comparison: Sydney vs San Jose, CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States&city1=Sydney&city2=San+Jose%2C+CA&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
  - mrmincent 3y ago
    In Australia don’t we all know exactly how much tax we’re paying? We have a flat 10% GST with the amount shown on every receipt?
    - jpollock 3y ago
      Yes, but people's behavior is different if the price is included or not. This is true for all taxes. People's decision to purchase is based on the list price, not the total price, so if it is GST inclusive, buying drops even though the total cost is the same. For an example I'm familiar with in my family, consider: You're paid $100,000 but your bank account only sees $60k, the rest is taxes but taken off by your employer. vs You're paid $100,000 and your bank account sees all $100k. At tax time, you need to write a check to the government for $40k. People get a lot more angry about writing the $40k check. It was _theirs_ in a way that the payroll taxes aren't. I've seen this personally when someone moves from employee to self-employed. The same applies with sales taxes. Most people don't look at the receipt, or if they do it's only to check that the amount taken matches the label. Do people get angry at gas taxes, or the oil companies? Taxes per l of fuel is 44.2c + 10% GST in 221.4c/l. Taxes are ~30% of the price? https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/fuel-resources/weekly-report#:~:text=The%20average%20price%20for%20regular,is%20221.4%20cents%20per%20litre https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/fuel-resources/we.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_Australia
jghn 3y ago
I agree personally but you’ll find that servers will push hardest against this. It’s possible for them to do much better than the “decent wage” they’d be paid otherwise. I have friends in the industry who clear 50 or even 100/hr. That’s going to be hard to proce into menu prices
- xattt 3y ago
  How do Australian wages and prices compare?
  - jpgvm 3y ago
    Wages for hospitality are higher when compared on distance to the median/indexed for COL. i.e it's a liveable wage but not a glamorous one. Prices in Australia are more evenly distributed. In the US high COL cities like San Francisco have much higher prices than butt fuck nowhere Omaha. In Australia there is still a delta but it's much much smaller. As a result prices in high COL Australian cities like Melbourne and Sydney are generally cheaper than the equivalent SF/LA/NY prices but rural areas in Australia are much more expensive than rural areas in the US.
- coryrc 3y ago
  It's already being paid though. It'll just be the owner has better leverage to keep more for themselves.
  - jghn 3y ago
    Mentioned this in another comment but one thing to consider is patronage at a restaurant is very spiky. Busy shifts and slow shifts. Paying all servers say 50-100/hr and raising menu prices to match would be prohibitive as the quiet shifts would kill them. Not requiring tipping but any model that allows pay to scale to volume would account for this. We see something similar where I live, restaurants are adding a %age based fee to go direct to kitchen staff. In my state tips can’t be split with BOH staff. This allows the owner to pay the BOH stadf more but scale it to actual volume
- 3y ago
csomar 3y ago
That's the expected in pretty much all of the world. In the few circumstances where some tourist joints diverge from that, it's because they preyed on some American tourists who accepted that status quo.
theogravity 3y ago
Tax included in price means re-printing menus more often due to any state or local tax fluctuations though.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I don't think this is a significant issue for most US restaurants. Except for nicer establishments, menus tend to be printouts that get replaced semi-regularly anyways. (Nicer restaurants also replace their menus regularly, but for different reasons: presenting a spotless and seasonal/rotating menu is part of their value proposition.)
- consp 3y ago
  Do they really change more often than regular price changes? And even if, would it be that much of an issue? As in: it works fine in the rest of the world.
  - tzs 3y ago
    How often do sales tax/VAT change in the rest of the world? I know it isn't often in Europe because I maintain the VAT tables at work for our Europe sales so have to deal with updating when it changes. We sell in 28 countries there, each with its own independent VAT, and since 2015 there have only been around 8 changes among all 28. Also in Europe VAT is per country. In the US sales tax at a given location is the sum of state sales tax, county sales tax, city sales tax, and possibly even special tax district sales taxes. The state rate usually doesn't change often, although it isn't as stable as Europe VAT rates. County and city rates aren't as stable, and there usually isn't coordination between the changes so if the state, county, and city are all going to raise rates in the next year they could easily end up each doing so in a different quarter.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Do they really change taxes more than maybe one time in a year?
- splix 3y ago
  Considering that nowadays "the menu" is just a QR-code link to a web site it's not so much of a big deal. PS Also consider that the other counties have been able to print the menus regardless the tax fluctuations. It doesn't seem to be a problem.
WheelsAtLarge 3y ago
Americans don't seem to embrace the idea of fair pay but no tips. The restaurants that have tried it have all had problems. Customers don't like the higher prices for the food and servers feel they can make better wages with them. For some it's true, workers in high end restaurants are very well paid because of tips. Tipping is just part of the culture.
throwawa14223 3y ago
Tipping I would like to see replaced with fair wages, but I like the tax not being included.

by shw1n 3y ago

wazoox 3y ago

That's basically how it works in Europe too. Actually I'd say it's how it works in civilized countries.

guiriduro 3y ago
Its jarring for a european when you visit the US and expect the workers to be compensated a living wage from the ticket/menu price, to find everyone hustling for tips and it being a weird expected thing because their actual wage is low (despite the prices being more aspirational than the food, often.) It also promotes poor hustling behaviour, whether thats non-owner taxi drivers driving like maniacs, or servers pestering every second with dreadful weak coffee you don't want, then expecting a tip.

hotpotamus 3y ago

I wonder - does Australia mandate that?

jpollock 3y ago
What part, tax inclusive pricing? Yes. It keeps the populace from realizing how much tax they're paying. :) No tipping? No, that's social. Workers paid a decent wage? I'm pretty sure that servers would claim they're not paid a decent wage. Australian minimum wage is AU$23.23, or USD$15 - USD$16.37 using PPP. Cost of living comparison: Sydney vs San Jose, CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States&city1=Sydney&city2=San+Jose%2C+CA&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- mrmincent 3y ago
  In Australia don’t we all know exactly how much tax we’re paying? We have a flat 10% GST with the amount shown on every receipt?
  - jpollock 3y ago
    Yes, but people's behavior is different if the price is included or not. This is true for all taxes. People's decision to purchase is based on the list price, not the total price, so if it is GST inclusive, buying drops even though the total cost is the same. For an example I'm familiar with in my family, consider: You're paid $100,000 but your bank account only sees $60k, the rest is taxes but taken off by your employer. vs You're paid $100,000 and your bank account sees all $100k. At tax time, you need to write a check to the government for $40k. People get a lot more angry about writing the $40k check. It was _theirs_ in a way that the payroll taxes aren't. I've seen this personally when someone moves from employee to self-employed. The same applies with sales taxes. Most people don't look at the receipt, or if they do it's only to check that the amount taken matches the label. Do people get angry at gas taxes, or the oil companies? Taxes per l of fuel is 44.2c + 10% GST in 221.4c/l. Taxes are ~30% of the price? https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/fuel-resources/weekly-report#:~:text=The%20average%20price%20for%20regular,is%20221.4%20cents%20per%20litre https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/fuel-resources/we.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_Australia

jghn 3y ago

I agree personally but you’ll find that servers will push hardest against this. It’s possible for them to do much better than the “decent wage” they’d be paid otherwise. I have friends in the industry who clear 50 or even 100/hr. That’s going to be hard to proce into menu prices

xattt 3y ago
How do Australian wages and prices compare?
- jpgvm 3y ago
  Wages for hospitality are higher when compared on distance to the median/indexed for COL. i.e it's a liveable wage but not a glamorous one. Prices in Australia are more evenly distributed. In the US high COL cities like San Francisco have much higher prices than butt fuck nowhere Omaha. In Australia there is still a delta but it's much much smaller. As a result prices in high COL Australian cities like Melbourne and Sydney are generally cheaper than the equivalent SF/LA/NY prices but rural areas in Australia are much more expensive than rural areas in the US.
coryrc 3y ago
It's already being paid though. It'll just be the owner has better leverage to keep more for themselves.
- jghn 3y ago
  Mentioned this in another comment but one thing to consider is patronage at a restaurant is very spiky. Busy shifts and slow shifts. Paying all servers say 50-100/hr and raising menu prices to match would be prohibitive as the quiet shifts would kill them. Not requiring tipping but any model that allows pay to scale to volume would account for this. We see something similar where I live, restaurants are adding a %age based fee to go direct to kitchen staff. In my state tips can’t be split with BOH staff. This allows the owner to pay the BOH stadf more but scale it to actual volume
3y ago

csomar 3y ago

That's the expected in pretty much all of the world. In the few circumstances where some tourist joints diverge from that, it's because they preyed on some American tourists who accepted that status quo.

theogravity 3y ago

Tax included in price means re-printing menus more often due to any state or local tax fluctuations though.

woodruffw 3y ago
I don't think this is a significant issue for most US restaurants. Except for nicer establishments, menus tend to be printouts that get replaced semi-regularly anyways. (Nicer restaurants also replace their menus regularly, but for different reasons: presenting a spotless and seasonal/rotating menu is part of their value proposition.)
consp 3y ago
Do they really change more often than regular price changes? And even if, would it be that much of an issue? As in: it works fine in the rest of the world.
- tzs 3y ago
  How often do sales tax/VAT change in the rest of the world? I know it isn't often in Europe because I maintain the VAT tables at work for our Europe sales so have to deal with updating when it changes. We sell in 28 countries there, each with its own independent VAT, and since 2015 there have only been around 8 changes among all 28. Also in Europe VAT is per country. In the US sales tax at a given location is the sum of state sales tax, county sales tax, city sales tax, and possibly even special tax district sales taxes. The state rate usually doesn't change often, although it isn't as stable as Europe VAT rates. County and city rates aren't as stable, and there usually isn't coordination between the changes so if the state, county, and city are all going to raise rates in the next year they could easily end up each doing so in a different quarter.
Ekaros 3y ago
Do they really change taxes more than maybe one time in a year?
splix 3y ago
Considering that nowadays "the menu" is just a QR-code link to a web site it's not so much of a big deal. PS Also consider that the other counties have been able to print the menus regardless the tax fluctuations. It doesn't seem to be a problem.

WheelsAtLarge 3y ago

Americans don't seem to embrace the idea of fair pay but no tips. The restaurants that have tried it have all had problems. Customers don't like the higher prices for the food and servers feel they can make better wages with them. For some it's true, workers in high end restaurants are very well paid because of tips. Tipping is just part of the culture.

throwawa14223 3y ago

Tipping I would like to see replaced with fair wages, but I like the tax not being included.