4 ms·

Similar clauses in other countries' laws haven't prevented extradition the other way.

ajross 15y ago
Good grief. It's the first sentence in the Bill of Rights, not merely a "clause in a law". And I don't know the specifics to which you are referring, but the UK does not have such a guarantee of speech rights. There are occasional flame wars to that effect in our share social circle. So no: there is no way in hell that any US court will order an extradition for a prosecution of a pure act of speech. They occasionally break that rule internally, of course. But no way would any politician allow a foreign court to do it.
- davweb 15y ago
  The UK is a signatory of the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR), Article 10 of which guarantees freedom of expression. This became law in the UK with the 1998 Human Rights Act. The text of the ECHR does explicitly mention "duties and responsibilities" and so is perhaps not as strong as the Bill of Rights in this regard, but it is wrong to say there is no guarantee to free speech in British law.
  - ajross 15y ago
    And the predicted argument about "does the UK have free speech?" has begun. I didn't say there is no guarantee to free speech in British law. I said the UK doesn't have a guarantee of the same form of the first amendment, as witnessed by the linked article where someone went to jail for tweets.
- AkThhhpppt 15y ago
  Yes, it's the first clause of the US Bill Of Rights. So? Still a clause in law. And that's the point; the gp was, I _believe_, complaining about the perceived lack of equity in a relationship that has the US extraditing citizens of the UK for actions that are crimes in their jurisdiction but not in the UK, when it would never be considered to be allowed the other way.
  - ajross 15y ago
    But it's not even remotely symmetric. In one direction it's just a crime being prosecuted, and the UK has similar laws that could conceivably apply. In the other it's a prima facie violation of (stated without hyperbole) the single most important law of the nation. See the difference? And the "never be considered to be allowed the other way" bit is silly. The US has extradition treaties with most of the industrialized world, and extradites criminals routinely (although perhaps not necessarily fairly or symmetrically). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_States#International_extradition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_S... But they won't extradite anyone for this crime, for reasons of fundamental constitutional law. That's not going to change no matter how many downvotes the first amendment receives above.
    - AkThhhpppt 15y ago
      The UK has no criminal law about copyright. Whatsoever. The US is attempting to extradite this guy for the crime of linking to copyrighted material: http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/jun/17/student-file-sharing-tvshack-extradition http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/jun/17/student-file-shari... I've been trying to find a case where the US extradited someone to a jurisdiction where they were accused of committing a crime not on US books. I can't.
      - ajross 15y ago
        No. The 2003 Extradition treaty certainly is a UK law. But (and for the record: I think that extradition is unjust too) this has nothing to do what our discussion at all. You want the US to extradite people for hate speech. I pointed out that no, that will never happen because of the clear text of the first amendment to the constitution. And you started flaming away, I guess because I'm American and therefore The Enemy. But the point remains that no matter how symmetric and just and wonderful its extradition policy might come to be, US law would never allow such an extradition. It will not happen. So stop flaming and find another shibboleth.
        15y ago

Good grief. It's the first sentence in the Bill of Rights, not merely a "clause in a law". And I don't know the specifics to which you are referring, but the UK does not have such a guarantee of speech rights. There are occasional flame wars to that effect in our share social circle. So no: there is no way in hell that any US court will order an extradition for a prosecution of a pure act of speech. They occasionally break that rule internally, of course. But no way would any politician allow a foreign court to do it.

davweb 15y ago
The UK is a signatory of the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR), Article 10 of which guarantees freedom of expression. This became law in the UK with the 1998 Human Rights Act. The text of the ECHR does explicitly mention "duties and responsibilities" and so is perhaps not as strong as the Bill of Rights in this regard, but it is wrong to say there is no guarantee to free speech in British law.
- ajross 15y ago
  And the predicted argument about "does the UK have free speech?" has begun. I didn't say there is no guarantee to free speech in British law. I said the UK doesn't have a guarantee of the same form of the first amendment, as witnessed by the linked article where someone went to jail for tweets.
AkThhhpppt 15y ago
Yes, it's the first clause of the US Bill Of Rights. So? Still a clause in law. And that's the point; the gp was, I _believe_, complaining about the perceived lack of equity in a relationship that has the US extraditing citizens of the UK for actions that are crimes in their jurisdiction but not in the UK, when it would never be considered to be allowed the other way.
- ajross 15y ago
  But it's not even remotely symmetric. In one direction it's just a crime being prosecuted, and the UK has similar laws that could conceivably apply. In the other it's a prima facie violation of (stated without hyperbole) the single most important law of the nation. See the difference? And the "never be considered to be allowed the other way" bit is silly. The US has extradition treaties with most of the industrialized world, and extradites criminals routinely (although perhaps not necessarily fairly or symmetrically). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_States#International_extradition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_S... But they won't extradite anyone for this crime, for reasons of fundamental constitutional law. That's not going to change no matter how many downvotes the first amendment receives above.
  - AkThhhpppt 15y ago
    The UK has no criminal law about copyright. Whatsoever. The US is attempting to extradite this guy for the crime of linking to copyrighted material: http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/jun/17/student-file-sharing-tvshack-extradition http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/jun/17/student-file-shari... I've been trying to find a case where the US extradited someone to a jurisdiction where they were accused of committing a crime not on US books. I can't.
    - ajross 15y ago
      No. The 2003 Extradition treaty certainly is a UK law. But (and for the record: I think that extradition is unjust too) this has nothing to do what our discussion at all. You want the US to extradite people for hate speech. I pointed out that no, that will never happen because of the clear text of the first amendment to the constitution. And you started flaming away, I guess because I'm American and therefore The Enemy. But the point remains that no matter how symmetric and just and wonderful its extradition policy might come to be, US law would never allow such an extradition. It will not happen. So stop flaming and find another shibboleth.
      - 15y ago