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>You get what you deserve if you don't block ads. I was with you until this piece. Not everyone is well educated enough on the nefarious nature of targeted onl

>You get what you deserve if you don't block ads. I was with you until this piece. Not everyone is well educated enough on the nefarious nature of targeted online advertising and the technical processes of blocking them on each platform. In some EU countries we have pretty strict regulations on what ads are allowed, where they're allowed and for what they're allowed, precisely because not everyone can "mentally ignore" them and people can be easily influenced. So you can't just say "well, it's you're own fault you got addicted to opioids/gambling/drinking/smoking, so you get what you deserve", when the whole city is plastered with ads for such accessible addictions. "Got a tooth-ache? Ask your doctor about OxyContin." "Got trouble paying the bills? Get a loan with 500% interest rate from us on the spot." "Wanna look cool? Smoke Bullshit cigars." Usually, the less educated and less well-off people are, the more vulnerable to nefarious and predatory advertising they tend to be, so it's the responsibility of us as a society to take legal steps of ensuring the regulation and blocking of targeted web ads at communal/societal level instead of leaving it to the individuals and the mercy of the "free market".

thefurdrake 3y ago
> I was with you until this piece. Not everyone is well educate enough on blocking ads. The statement was directed to the audience, IE HN. I have confidence that everyone on HN is capable of installing those browser plugins and comprehending the complex clusterfuck that is uMatrix. I don't have a solution for the less-technical folks right now. The best I can do is encourage people who ARE capable of responding reasonably to that message to help the people who don't. uBlock Origin is already pretty friendly, but uMatrix is a nightmare.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >The statement was directed to the audience, IE HN. Unclear from your comment who the target audience was, but to me it would be equally inflammatory regardless. The non-tech-savvy users are a way bigger and more vulnerable target than just the HN userbase which is a microscopic minority on global level.
  - thefurdrake 3y ago
    > Unclear from your comment who the target was, but to me it was equally inflammatory, regardless Eh, agreed. Kinda detracts from the point. I've gotten pretty vehement about the topic over the last few years I guess.
  - LMYahooTFY 3y ago
    Equally inflammatory to tell people who should know better that they'll keep getting what they deserve? How is it unclear who the audience is on HN? Encouraging those who can to do is also a component of grassroots change. I don't think it took much charity to interpret their comment as being directed toward HN, and only a little more to imagine how pushing tech people to use/develop/polish ad blocking tools can result in the spread of such things. Seems like you're working hard to be upset.
- vik0 3y ago
  uBlock can become decently complicated too if you enable "I'm an advanced user" in the settings menu I think it can be made to do the same things as uMatrix with advanced mode (I use medium mode on uBlock) - or am I wrong on this? Ive never used uMatrix before
  - thefurdrake 3y ago
    Honestly, I admit I've never tried to make uBlock behave like uMatrix. A quick look at the UI suggests maybe (?). uMatrix allows me to granularly select types of resources like scripts, iframes, and images from every domain/subdomain on a page, though, and that UI didn't look like it was set up for that to be possible easily. I think I actually started out with uMatrix first so I've mostly relied on it to do most of the heavy lifting.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  > I don't have a solution for the less-technical folks right now. The best I can do is encourage people They suggested regulation as is done in Europe. Perhaps that's worthy of consideration since hope and power users aren't stopping this problem
  - thefurdrake 3y ago
    I think regulation is definitely part of the solution. The problem we're facing is that adtech is a multibillion dollar industry with the will and means to actively research and develop new and exciting ways to bypass legislation. I can't control the legislation beyond who I vote for, and none of the voting options I'm given seem aware of how the internet works, so I am left with the avenue of "Angrily tell people on the internet to stop doing that" and try to encourage attrition as much as I can.
    - flangola7 3y ago
      Legislation can be written so that there is no bypass. Google's billions would not save them if tomorrow they embarked on building a private nuclear SLBM fleet.
      - cf141q5325 3y ago
        >Legislation can be written so that there is no bypass. It cant for existing profitable business models. You couldnt ban the google owned nuclear SLBM fleet if it already existed and represent the most profitable sector of the economy. Inertia exists and the more profitable the topics the harder it is to break from a central position. It would be economic suicide on a national level. You would get some paper tiger checks and balances entrenching googles nuclear fleet monopoly.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >You couldnt ban the google owned nuclear SLBM fleet if it already existed and represent the most profitable sector of the economy. Of course we can ban that. :laughs in EU: There just isn't the political will behind it like it is on things like ICE cars or nuclear energy, because unlike the latter things, the politicians and voters don't understands it well enough to be outraged about it.
- ajdude 3y ago
  > I don't have a solution for the less-technical folks right now When I set a computer for any of my friends and family, I drop uBlock Origin on it and show them briefly how it works, usually using cnn or similar sites an example. It solves 99% of any computer problems they run into.
  - zolbrek 3y ago
    I just have them use Brave.
    - Krasnol 3y ago
      This is no solution. There was a time when Chrome started to be bundled with every freeware out there. Most of the people where I did IT-Support ended up using chrome at some point. They didn't even realize when or how they changed a browser. Some didn't even know what a browser IS. They just open "the internet". I had installed Firefox with proper protection before that.
      - zolbrek 3y ago
        Why isn't it a solution? It works pretty well for them, I don't get any calls or messages asking why something isn't doing what it's supposed to.
        Krasnol 3y ago
        Good for you. I ended up with a bunch of users who used chrome without adblocker, downloading crap. In the end, I diverted the chrome shortcut to Firefox, which is good enough with ublock. Wouldn't install them, Brave. Don't want them to come back to me asking about that crypto custerfu.
        zolbrek 3y ago
        I ignore the crypto thing exists as should every decent human being.
1shooner 3y ago
The best comparison I can think of is hygiene. Yes, it's a public safety issue that requires a collective solution, but it also requires individuals to understand, and ultimately take responsibility for their own self-care. The shared solutions would never work, or be taken seriously, unless individuals knew "I can't drink dirty water, I need clean water". You also 'get what you deserve' when you drink the untreated water downstream from the village.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cf141q5325 3y ago
There are however limits if you dont want a dysfunctional bureaucracy try to micromanage you. You will always have especially vulnerable sections of society (kids, addicts ...), but you still cant treat everyone like that. Especially as wanting something to be fixed doesnt influence how fixable it is. Ads are of course a giant security risk, but its a very profitable one. At best any solution coming through such a bureaucracy will in essence create monopolies that can afford regulatory capture and security theater. This is really "our" problem. If the audience here doesnt find fixes its unrealistic to expect that of regulators. This is a systemic issue caused by the economic structure that cant be fixed by yet another law.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >but its a very profitable one. If everyone blocked ads then it wouldn't be so profitable. The reason it's so profitable is that very few internet users actually have ad-blockers in place.
  - cf141q5325 3y ago
    Your point of this requiring user action matches my point exactly. There is a giant industry here. Any attempt at top down regulation will fail at that and get either regulatory captured or poked holes through for the big players.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Ad-tech is exclusively big players already anyway: Google & Meta. Let me play you the world's smallest violin for them. And it's not like ad-tech is an important industry that's mandatory for a healthy society like healthcare, energy, transportations, education, environment, agriculture, etc. We can easily survive without them being so wealthy and powerful. We might even be in a happier place with them defanged, even if their shareholders wouldn't.
      - cf141q5325 3y ago
mnw21cam 3y ago
I agree, but have a simpler argument. Nobody deserves to have their computer compromised - whether they block ads or not is irrelevant. Saying otherwise is victim blaming. It's the same as saying that a woman who walks down the street in attractive clothing deserves to be raped, and society is making some pretty strong statements about that sort of thinking these days.

thefurdrake 3y ago

> I was with you until this piece. Not everyone is well educate enough on blocking ads. The statement was directed to the audience, IE HN. I have confidence that everyone on HN is capable of installing those browser plugins and comprehending the complex clusterfuck that is uMatrix. I don't have a solution for the less-technical folks right now. The best I can do is encourage people who ARE capable of responding reasonably to that message to help the people who don't. uBlock Origin is already pretty friendly, but uMatrix is a nightmare.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>The statement was directed to the audience, IE HN. Unclear from your comment who the target audience was, but to me it would be equally inflammatory regardless. The non-tech-savvy users are a way bigger and more vulnerable target than just the HN userbase which is a microscopic minority on global level.
- thefurdrake 3y ago
  > Unclear from your comment who the target was, but to me it was equally inflammatory, regardless Eh, agreed. Kinda detracts from the point. I've gotten pretty vehement about the topic over the last few years I guess.
- LMYahooTFY 3y ago
  Equally inflammatory to tell people who should know better that they'll keep getting what they deserve? How is it unclear who the audience is on HN? Encouraging those who can to do is also a component of grassroots change. I don't think it took much charity to interpret their comment as being directed toward HN, and only a little more to imagine how pushing tech people to use/develop/polish ad blocking tools can result in the spread of such things. Seems like you're working hard to be upset.
vik0 3y ago
uBlock can become decently complicated too if you enable "I'm an advanced user" in the settings menu I think it can be made to do the same things as uMatrix with advanced mode (I use medium mode on uBlock) - or am I wrong on this? Ive never used uMatrix before
- thefurdrake 3y ago
  Honestly, I admit I've never tried to make uBlock behave like uMatrix. A quick look at the UI suggests maybe (?). uMatrix allows me to granularly select types of resources like scripts, iframes, and images from every domain/subdomain on a page, though, and that UI didn't look like it was set up for that to be possible easily. I think I actually started out with uMatrix first so I've mostly relied on it to do most of the heavy lifting.
paulryanrogers 3y ago
> I don't have a solution for the less-technical folks right now. The best I can do is encourage people They suggested regulation as is done in Europe. Perhaps that's worthy of consideration since hope and power users aren't stopping this problem
- thefurdrake 3y ago
  I think regulation is definitely part of the solution. The problem we're facing is that adtech is a multibillion dollar industry with the will and means to actively research and develop new and exciting ways to bypass legislation. I can't control the legislation beyond who I vote for, and none of the voting options I'm given seem aware of how the internet works, so I am left with the avenue of "Angrily tell people on the internet to stop doing that" and try to encourage attrition as much as I can.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    Legislation can be written so that there is no bypass. Google's billions would not save them if tomorrow they embarked on building a private nuclear SLBM fleet.
    - cf141q5325 3y ago
      >Legislation can be written so that there is no bypass. It cant for existing profitable business models. You couldnt ban the google owned nuclear SLBM fleet if it already existed and represent the most profitable sector of the economy. Inertia exists and the more profitable the topics the harder it is to break from a central position. It would be economic suicide on a national level. You would get some paper tiger checks and balances entrenching googles nuclear fleet monopoly.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >You couldnt ban the google owned nuclear SLBM fleet if it already existed and represent the most profitable sector of the economy. Of course we can ban that. :laughs in EU: There just isn't the political will behind it like it is on things like ICE cars or nuclear energy, because unlike the latter things, the politicians and voters don't understands it well enough to be outraged about it.
ajdude 3y ago
> I don't have a solution for the less-technical folks right now When I set a computer for any of my friends and family, I drop uBlock Origin on it and show them briefly how it works, usually using cnn or similar sites an example. It solves 99% of any computer problems they run into.
- zolbrek 3y ago
  I just have them use Brave.
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    This is no solution. There was a time when Chrome started to be bundled with every freeware out there. Most of the people where I did IT-Support ended up using chrome at some point. They didn't even realize when or how they changed a browser. Some didn't even know what a browser IS. They just open "the internet". I had installed Firefox with proper protection before that.
    - zolbrek 3y ago
      Why isn't it a solution? It works pretty well for them, I don't get any calls or messages asking why something isn't doing what it's supposed to.
      - Krasnol 3y ago
        Good for you. I ended up with a bunch of users who used chrome without adblocker, downloading crap. In the end, I diverted the chrome shortcut to Firefox, which is good enough with ublock. Wouldn't install them, Brave. Don't want them to come back to me asking about that crypto custerfu.
        zolbrek 3y ago
        I ignore the crypto thing exists as should every decent human being.

1shooner 3y ago

The best comparison I can think of is hygiene. Yes, it's a public safety issue that requires a collective solution, but it also requires individuals to understand, and ultimately take responsibility for their own self-care. The shared solutions would never work, or be taken seriously, unless individuals knew "I can't drink dirty water, I need clean water". You also 'get what you deserve' when you drink the untreated water downstream from the village.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

cf141q5325 3y ago

There are however limits if you dont want a dysfunctional bureaucracy try to micromanage you. You will always have especially vulnerable sections of society (kids, addicts ...), but you still cant treat everyone like that. Especially as wanting something to be fixed doesnt influence how fixable it is. Ads are of course a giant security risk, but its a very profitable one. At best any solution coming through such a bureaucracy will in essence create monopolies that can afford regulatory capture and security theater. This is really "our" problem. If the audience here doesnt find fixes its unrealistic to expect that of regulators. This is a systemic issue caused by the economic structure that cant be fixed by yet another law.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>but its a very profitable one. If everyone blocked ads then it wouldn't be so profitable. The reason it's so profitable is that very few internet users actually have ad-blockers in place.
- cf141q5325 3y ago
  Your point of this requiring user action matches my point exactly. There is a giant industry here. Any attempt at top down regulation will fail at that and get either regulatory captured or poked holes through for the big players.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Ad-tech is exclusively big players already anyway: Google & Meta. Let me play you the world's smallest violin for them. And it's not like ad-tech is an important industry that's mandatory for a healthy society like healthcare, energy, transportations, education, environment, agriculture, etc. We can easily survive without them being so wealthy and powerful. We might even be in a happier place with them defanged, even if their shareholders wouldn't.
    - cf141q5325 3y ago

mnw21cam 3y ago

I agree, but have a simpler argument. Nobody deserves to have their computer compromised - whether they block ads or not is irrelevant. Saying otherwise is victim blaming. It's the same as saying that a woman who walks down the street in attractive clothing deserves to be raped, and society is making some pretty strong statements about that sort of thinking these days.