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> The [galvanized corrugated steel] sheets don’t just have value; they are value. With two sheets you can buy a goat, with twenty an Ankole cow. Giordano Bru

> The [galvanized corrugated steel] sheets don’t just have value; they are value. With two sheets you can buy a goat, with twenty an Ankole cow. Giordano Bruno said that whatever has the most value and the least cost of storage becomes money. This seems like an example? Amusingly, the "coins" store themselves as they are literally the roofs protecting other valuables-- and people! --from the elements.

dredmorbius 3y ago
Apparently a fact you like repeating ;-) <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=giordano%20bruno%20money%20by%3Acarapace&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...> Would you happen to know where Bruno said this, as it doesn't seem any of your earlier comments gives this vital detail, and I'm not finding any likely references elsewhere? A definition I find useful (though not entirely accurate) is from William Stanley Jevons who identified a properties of money as: 1. utility and value 2. portability 3. indestructability 4. homogeneity 5. divisibility 6. stability of value, and 7. cognisability William Stanley Jevons, Money and the Mechanism of Exchange Chapter 5: <https://archive.org/details/cu31924013816172 https://archive.org/details/cu31924013816172> Points 1, 2, & 3 afford low cost of storage. Of those, I differ with him on utility and value, as we have fiat currencies and accounts notations of no intrinsic value themselves, rather utility and value are the inverse of trust in the money-issuing authority. "Seignorage" in specie is then a measure of trust, and fiat currency effectively has infinite trust. My own view is that money is that commodity which has the most universal appeal, that is, it's what is wanted more than any other commodity. That might be a domestic government-issued coin or currency, but often has been something else: currency of some other government (as in Ecuador, El Salvador, Zimbabwe, British Virgin Islands, and Bonaire, the last being a Dutch territory), or physical commodity such as cigarettes, cowhide, beaver pelt, grain, shells, silk, etc. In high-trust societies, debt and credit substitute for physical tokens. Thanks.
- carapace 3y ago
  > Apparently a fact you like repeating ;-) Yeah, I really find it interesting. It's so modern, almost like something from cybernetics. It reminds me of how Gurdjieff said that the "atom" of a phenomenon was the smallest amount of it that evinces all of its qualities. It only took seven years to get a thoughtful reply. Cheers! :) > Would you happen to know where Bruno said this I originally read it in one of Robert Anton Wilson's books (or possible a foreword he wrote for some other book that he didn't write, which probably isn't helpful.) I have no idea where he got it. Certainly money in practice and theory has become much more complex than it was five hundred years ago when he (might have) said it. I should tell you that when it comes to economics I'm basically a troglodyte. I feel higher economics is actually a form of numerology. I won't be offended if you decline to discuss it further with me. :)
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Thanks!
zem 3y ago
i think that that needs an addendum along the lines of "as long as it's not necessary and/or consumable", otherwise you have to decide between using it as a medium of exchange and just using it. even in this case, the only way you could really "spend" the sheets is by removing the roof and walls of your house, so until you have some extra, unneeded ones, they aren't really money. they're more a store of value; an analogue might be buying artwork that you know you could sell later if you needed the money.
- philsnow 3y ago
  "I declare the Mountain besieged. [...] We will bear no weapons against you, but we leave you to your gold. You may eat that, if you will!" -- The Hobbit, Chapter 15, The Gathering of the Clouds
- __s 3y ago
  Path of Exile has a deep economy based around consumable crafting items https://poe.ninja https://poe.ninja https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Economy https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Economy
iancmceachern 3y ago
Also makes sense why gold is used traditionally as a storage of value, it doesn't tarnish or rust away with age

dredmorbius 3y ago

Apparently a fact you like repeating ;-) <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=giordano%20bruno%20money%20by%3Acarapace&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...> Would you happen to know where Bruno said this, as it doesn't seem any of your earlier comments gives this vital detail, and I'm not finding any likely references elsewhere? A definition I find useful (though not entirely accurate) is from William Stanley Jevons who identified a properties of money as: 1. utility and value 2. portability 3. indestructability 4. homogeneity 5. divisibility 6. stability of value, and 7. cognisability William Stanley Jevons, Money and the Mechanism of Exchange Chapter 5: <https://archive.org/details/cu31924013816172 https://archive.org/details/cu31924013816172> Points 1, 2, & 3 afford low cost of storage. Of those, I differ with him on utility and value, as we have fiat currencies and accounts notations of no intrinsic value themselves, rather utility and value are the inverse of trust in the money-issuing authority. "Seignorage" in specie is then a measure of trust, and fiat currency effectively has infinite trust. My own view is that money is that commodity which has the most universal appeal, that is, it's what is wanted more than any other commodity. That might be a domestic government-issued coin or currency, but often has been something else: currency of some other government (as in Ecuador, El Salvador, Zimbabwe, British Virgin Islands, and Bonaire, the last being a Dutch territory), or physical commodity such as cigarettes, cowhide, beaver pelt, grain, shells, silk, etc. In high-trust societies, debt and credit substitute for physical tokens. Thanks.

carapace 3y ago
> Apparently a fact you like repeating ;-) Yeah, I really find it interesting. It's so modern, almost like something from cybernetics. It reminds me of how Gurdjieff said that the "atom" of a phenomenon was the smallest amount of it that evinces all of its qualities. It only took seven years to get a thoughtful reply. Cheers! :) > Would you happen to know where Bruno said this I originally read it in one of Robert Anton Wilson's books (or possible a foreword he wrote for some other book that he didn't write, which probably isn't helpful.) I have no idea where he got it. Certainly money in practice and theory has become much more complex than it was five hundred years ago when he (might have) said it. I should tell you that when it comes to economics I'm basically a troglodyte. I feel higher economics is actually a form of numerology. I won't be offended if you decline to discuss it further with me. :)
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Thanks!

zem 3y ago

i think that that needs an addendum along the lines of "as long as it's not necessary and/or consumable", otherwise you have to decide between using it as a medium of exchange and just using it. even in this case, the only way you could really "spend" the sheets is by removing the roof and walls of your house, so until you have some extra, unneeded ones, they aren't really money. they're more a store of value; an analogue might be buying artwork that you know you could sell later if you needed the money.

philsnow 3y ago
"I declare the Mountain besieged. [...] We will bear no weapons against you, but we leave you to your gold. You may eat that, if you will!" -- The Hobbit, Chapter 15, The Gathering of the Clouds
__s 3y ago
Path of Exile has a deep economy based around consumable crafting items https://poe.ninja https://poe.ninja https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Economy https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Economy

iancmceachern 3y ago

Also makes sense why gold is used traditionally as a storage of value, it doesn't tarnish or rust away with age