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The animal kingdom eats each other for food too. This veganism argument has never made sense to me, it implies that we are not, ourselves, a member of the natur

The animal kingdom eats each other for food too. This veganism argument has never made sense to me, it implies that we are not, ourselves, a member of the natural food chain.

version_five 3y ago
It's not you, it doesn't make sense, it's just signaling membership in a club/cult
metalcrow 3y ago
Isn't it because we have morals, unlike animals? Animals do a lot of other objectively terrible things, it doesn't mean we also are fine to do it.
- starttoaster 3y ago
  Do we know that animals don’t have morals? What are morals and how are they unique to humans? They’re valuable in society because they help shape society into what it is today, but do they help us much in our interactions with other members of the animal kingdom?
ever1337 3y ago
I guess the question then is whether you think it's moral to murder a murderer
- starttoaster 3y ago
  If you’re calling me a murderer… then you’re welcome to try. But generally, yes, I do think in extreme cases the death penalty is warranted for serial killers and the like.
lgvln 3y ago
The argument for veganism was never about not killing animals but about how much suffering factory-farmed animals go through to become meat on our plates. Because of the difficulties in sourcing ethically raised animal products, some choose to forgo all animal products.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  The argument for veganism began with not killing animals. Hindus, Jains, and Buddhists all worked on this for millennia. Percy Bysshe Shelly, likewise. https://www.britannica.com/topic/veganism https://www.britannica.com/topic/veganism Now you're trying to rewrite history to appeal to people in the PETA and Upton Sinclair traditions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle You can say what you want about your personal reasons, but don't pretend that all vegans have this narrow focus.
  - lgvln 3y ago
    Fair enough. It might have begun with that in mind but the contemporary argument for veganism or vegetarianism is not about that. There is no need for such language. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_liberation_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_liberation_movement
    - defrost 3y ago
      > There is no need for such language. I'm not real bright, can you highlight and quote the exact phrase used above that you object to? (Was it "Shelly" perhaps?) > argument for veganism was never about not killing animals but about how much suffering factory-farmed animals go through So, to be clear here, you're absolutely A-OK with the traditional steppe herding practices of treating animals well and then, when needing to kill them for meat, hugging them and quickly cutting open the chest and directly stopping the heart? It's a well cared for life with as rapid and relatively painless death as can be wished for.
      - lgvln 3y ago
        > I'm not real bright Not resorting to ad hominem arguments is a good start > So, to be clear here, you're absolutely A-OK... It is not about what I think, it is about what are the contemporary arguments for veganism or vegetarianism. If you care about the suffering of factory-farmed (or not factory-farmed) animals, good for you. How far you want to take that is entirely up to you. Some people eat less meat, others avoid all animal products.
bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
I believe the vegan argument is, simply, if you have the option to cause or not to cause suffering to another being, you should choose not to. Other animals do not have that choice — it's eat or starve — but we do have the choice and so the ethical thing to do is avail ourselves of it.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  We have to eat as well, and plants also have feelings and pain.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    There is no evidence that plants have feelings and pain, but there is overwhelming evidence that animals do... Trading a possibility for a certainty?
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Even so, it is still killing a living being.
sgu999 3y ago
You with your trolley zooming through the refrigerated section of the supermarket, part of the food chain? Come on, there is nothing natural about our environment. Lucky us, we can now live until 80 instead of 25, in good portion because we don't accept to be part of it.
- starttoaster 3y ago
  I also fish, would hunt, and forage for mushrooms and other vegetables. But yes I also partake in meat at the supermarket. The natural thing is I could be hiking in the mountains and get attacked and eaten by a bear at any time. Omnivorous and carnivorous animals eat other animals, that’s what’s natural.
  - sgu999 3y ago
    > Omnivorous and carnivorous animals eat other animals, that’s what’s natural. Sure, that's why every time some dude gets attacked by a bear or a wolf, that makes headlines... because as a society we are completely OK with it being natural and all. Same goes for natural disasters by the way. My initial comment was about industrial farming, which has absolutely no common ground with the natural food chain our ancestors had to be part of to survive. You're completely off topic.
    - starttoaster 3y ago
      > because as a society we are completely OK with it being natural and all. To be honest, it hurts when it's a family member, but the people really upset about this with no relation to the deceased just have weak stomachs, in my opinion. The bear was hungry, or annoyed, or threatened, and did what it had to do to reconcile the situation from its perspective. > was about industrial farming Sure, and industrial farming was a thing that humanity did to continue our natural eating habits but further society in other ways. If we're all out farming with our own livestock, we have far fewer IT professionals, doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc. So to make way for that, we furthered industrial. It's not ideal for the animals, granted. Anyway, I digress. You feel bad for the animals and did something about it. I can respect that. I'm not going to change my diet regardless of the outcome of this conversation, though. If the bears figured out how to process humans in an industrial farm setting to ensure their kin don't go hungry, they would have done it too.

The animal kingdom eats each other for food too. This veganism argument has never made sense to me, it implies that we are not, ourselves, a member of the natural food chain.

version_five 3y ago

It's not you, it doesn't make sense, it's just signaling membership in a club/cult

metalcrow 3y ago

Isn't it because we have morals, unlike animals? Animals do a lot of other objectively terrible things, it doesn't mean we also are fine to do it.

starttoaster 3y ago
Do we know that animals don’t have morals? What are morals and how are they unique to humans? They’re valuable in society because they help shape society into what it is today, but do they help us much in our interactions with other members of the animal kingdom?

ever1337 3y ago

I guess the question then is whether you think it's moral to murder a murderer

starttoaster 3y ago
If you’re calling me a murderer… then you’re welcome to try. But generally, yes, I do think in extreme cases the death penalty is warranted for serial killers and the like.

lgvln 3y ago

The argument for veganism was never about not killing animals but about how much suffering factory-farmed animals go through to become meat on our plates. Because of the difficulties in sourcing ethically raised animal products, some choose to forgo all animal products.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
The argument for veganism began with not killing animals. Hindus, Jains, and Buddhists all worked on this for millennia. Percy Bysshe Shelly, likewise. https://www.britannica.com/topic/veganism https://www.britannica.com/topic/veganism Now you're trying to rewrite history to appeal to people in the PETA and Upton Sinclair traditions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle You can say what you want about your personal reasons, but don't pretend that all vegans have this narrow focus.
- lgvln 3y ago
  Fair enough. It might have begun with that in mind but the contemporary argument for veganism or vegetarianism is not about that. There is no need for such language. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_liberation_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_liberation_movement
  - defrost 3y ago
    > There is no need for such language. I'm not real bright, can you highlight and quote the exact phrase used above that you object to? (Was it "Shelly" perhaps?) > argument for veganism was never about not killing animals but about how much suffering factory-farmed animals go through So, to be clear here, you're absolutely A-OK with the traditional steppe herding practices of treating animals well and then, when needing to kill them for meat, hugging them and quickly cutting open the chest and directly stopping the heart? It's a well cared for life with as rapid and relatively painless death as can be wished for.
    - lgvln 3y ago
      > I'm not real bright Not resorting to ad hominem arguments is a good start > So, to be clear here, you're absolutely A-OK... It is not about what I think, it is about what are the contemporary arguments for veganism or vegetarianism. If you care about the suffering of factory-farmed (or not factory-farmed) animals, good for you. How far you want to take that is entirely up to you. Some people eat less meat, others avoid all animal products.

bobbylarrybobby 3y ago

I believe the vegan argument is, simply, if you have the option to cause or not to cause suffering to another being, you should choose not to. Other animals do not have that choice — it's eat or starve — but we do have the choice and so the ethical thing to do is avail ourselves of it.

pjmlp 3y ago
We have to eat as well, and plants also have feelings and pain.
- sgu999 3y ago
  There is no evidence that plants have feelings and pain, but there is overwhelming evidence that animals do... Trading a possibility for a certainty?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Even so, it is still killing a living being.

sgu999 3y ago

You with your trolley zooming through the refrigerated section of the supermarket, part of the food chain? Come on, there is nothing natural about our environment. Lucky us, we can now live until 80 instead of 25, in good portion because we don't accept to be part of it.

starttoaster 3y ago
I also fish, would hunt, and forage for mushrooms and other vegetables. But yes I also partake in meat at the supermarket. The natural thing is I could be hiking in the mountains and get attacked and eaten by a bear at any time. Omnivorous and carnivorous animals eat other animals, that’s what’s natural.
- sgu999 3y ago
  > Omnivorous and carnivorous animals eat other animals, that’s what’s natural. Sure, that's why every time some dude gets attacked by a bear or a wolf, that makes headlines... because as a society we are completely OK with it being natural and all. Same goes for natural disasters by the way. My initial comment was about industrial farming, which has absolutely no common ground with the natural food chain our ancestors had to be part of to survive. You're completely off topic.
  - starttoaster 3y ago
    > because as a society we are completely OK with it being natural and all. To be honest, it hurts when it's a family member, but the people really upset about this with no relation to the deceased just have weak stomachs, in my opinion. The bear was hungry, or annoyed, or threatened, and did what it had to do to reconcile the situation from its perspective. > was about industrial farming Sure, and industrial farming was a thing that humanity did to continue our natural eating habits but further society in other ways. If we're all out farming with our own livestock, we have far fewer IT professionals, doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc. So to make way for that, we furthered industrial. It's not ideal for the animals, granted. Anyway, I digress. You feel bad for the animals and did something about it. I can respect that. I'm not going to change my diet regardless of the outcome of this conversation, though. If the bears figured out how to process humans in an industrial farm setting to ensure their kin don't go hungry, they would have done it too.