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> Jatt Sikh separatism was extremely violent and was engineered by the cynicism and short sightedness of the people running India at the time https://en.wikipe

> Jatt Sikh separatism was extremely violent and was engineered by the cynicism and short sightedness of the people running India at the time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star#Casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star#Casualties Again, I have to question whether the dominant HINDU population has moved past this demand, or if the discriminated-against Sikh population in Punjab has moved on.

kaycey2022 3y ago
Your framing is uninformed (if one were charitable, malicious if one weren't) Hindus are a minority in Punjab, and Sikhs are dominant. At the time when the Jatt Sikh militancy broke out, Punjab was one of India's richest states with the politics and the economy being "dominated" by the Jat Sikhs. While Punjab's economy is a shadow of those times, it is still "dominated" by Jatt Sikhs. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=iNBbBAAAQBAJ&lpg=PT11&ots=VsZNGkJliQ&dq=punjab%20gdp%20before%20insurgency%20was%20highest&pg=PT10#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.co.in/books?id=iNBbBAAAQBAJ&lpg=PT11&ot... I think I've already answered that India's Sikhs don't want anything to do with Khalistan. As to why, the answer is simple: without the rest of India and it's unified market and the rights available to citizens, Punjab will be an economic basket case, as would almost any other Indian state. Not to mention they will certainly be cut off from their temples and monuments established in other parts of the country. Communities established in the rest of the country will be likely forcibly expelled to the new state. (Edit: I'm not wishing this would happen. But given India's history with partition on religious grounds, this kind of displacement on a more thorough scale is exactly what is going to happen. My argument is that Sikhs and every community knows this, and that is why I have pointed out that it was the Sikhs who fought the Khalistanis and either eliminated or drove them away) It is only a small section of Commonwealth Sikhs who use this Khalistan thing as a cover for their criminal activities. One only needs to examine the circumstances in which these "activists" left India and the present company they keep to realise this. It is possible some of them are still rightfully pissed off about the raid on the Golden Temple in '84. But formation of Khalistan does not serve their interests.
- deanCommie 3y ago
  > Your framing is uninformed (if one were charitable, malicious if one weren't) I deserve this call-out. I acknowledge I'm uninformed, and I am attempting to get more informed through the various discussions on this thread. But it's VERY hard to fact-check a lot of the things being said. Some are leading with obvious bias. You are not. I'm inclined to believe more of what you have to say. I assure you I am not malicious. I have a great respect for India, Hindus, Sikhs, Punjabs, and Canadians. I have a great disrespect for Narendra Modi and his policies. I do not support terrorism, but I also fall short of saying that non-violent resistance is the only path to liberation. History has vindicated violence as a means to achieve freedom in many contexts. My understanding of the history of tensions within India between Sikhs and the rest of the country is painted based on broad incidents, like the assassinations of leaders, Golden Temple, etc. I gather my instincts from that. But for modern perspectives, it is incredibly hard for me from my western bubble to get accurate impartial information or statistics. What percentage of Punjab citizens want independence? What percentage of Punjabi Canadians in the diaspora? What percentage support violence to achieve Khalistan? I would like to learn. Many threads have drawn comparisons to Quebec. I moved to Canada as an immigrant in 1995. I was infatuated with the country. And I was immediately confronted with the country's 2nd largest subdivision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum coming inches within 0.6% of voting to leave. I was furious. I didn't understand. I spent the next decade of my youth joking to anyone who would hear that "Canada should've kicked Quebec out for the vote being so close. They would have died economically, and they would've crawled back begging." Then I looked into the actual history of Quebec and Canada. And I understood just how much propaganda and misinformation exists in English-language Canada that mocks Quebecois uniqueness and interests. And I decided I actually understand why so many Quebecers wanted to separate, but that I wanted them to stay because their uniqueness is vital to the Canadian spirit. I can't imagine what I would think if the history was as violent as it was with Sikhs within India. Which is why I keep doubting the premise that these sentiments only exist in the diaspora outside of Punjab.
  - kaycey2022 3y ago
    Reading this is so frustrating I don't even know where to begin. I was writing a long reply to you some time back.. and I just deleted it all. I thought there is no point. I don't think you are insincere. I'm certain that you are a very good person. But there is a certain arrogance in trying to understand things you are not equipped to understand. Not being equipped to understand things is not always a bad thing. And it certainly does not mean that things are always out of your control. I must admit that I'm not articulate or authoritative to present this myself. I would recommend listening to this conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpa597jg4uY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpa597jg4uY with as much open mindedness as you can muster.
screye 3y ago
Watching Americans map their ideas around rabid white nationalism onto Hindus says more about the naturally violent tendencies of the west than it does about Indians. Typing hindu in all caps does not change the heterogeneity of the people and it doesn't change the millenia long welcoming nature of the native people of this land. The HINDU only exists in the imagination of the western academic.
- deanCommie 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narendra_Modi#Hindutva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narendra_Modi#Hindutva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva Are these western (I'm not American) inventions?
  - screye 3y ago
    No, but framing them as a religious crusade is. > almost fascist in the classical sense, ethnic absolutism I would be very careful with using Wikipedia as a source for politically fraught & contemporary issues. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva#:~:text=Hindutva%20ideology%20has%20focused%20on%20the%20following%20issues%3A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva#:~:text=Hindutva%20id... When the article moves from the the editorialized introduction to their stated goals, it doesn't sound as bad. > Replace "pseudo-secularism" with "true secularism", the latter being the Western-style separation of religion and state. Decentralize and reform the Indian economy, end the socialist, centrally-planned, state-owned economic model. Address Christian and Islamic proselytization, religious conversion practices and the arithmetic of religious communities in India; insist that Muslims and Christians accept its doctrine of equality of religions. That's western Libertarianism in a nutshell.

kaycey2022 3y ago

Your framing is uninformed (if one were charitable, malicious if one weren't) Hindus are a minority in Punjab, and Sikhs are dominant. At the time when the Jatt Sikh militancy broke out, Punjab was one of India's richest states with the politics and the economy being "dominated" by the Jat Sikhs. While Punjab's economy is a shadow of those times, it is still "dominated" by Jatt Sikhs. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=iNBbBAAAQBAJ&lpg=PT11&ots=VsZNGkJliQ&dq=punjab%20gdp%20before%20insurgency%20was%20highest&pg=PT10#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.co.in/books?id=iNBbBAAAQBAJ&lpg=PT11&ot... I think I've already answered that India's Sikhs don't want anything to do with Khalistan. As to why, the answer is simple: without the rest of India and it's unified market and the rights available to citizens, Punjab will be an economic basket case, as would almost any other Indian state. Not to mention they will certainly be cut off from their temples and monuments established in other parts of the country. Communities established in the rest of the country will be likely forcibly expelled to the new state. (Edit: I'm not wishing this would happen. But given India's history with partition on religious grounds, this kind of displacement on a more thorough scale is exactly what is going to happen. My argument is that Sikhs and every community knows this, and that is why I have pointed out that it was the Sikhs who fought the Khalistanis and either eliminated or drove them away) It is only a small section of Commonwealth Sikhs who use this Khalistan thing as a cover for their criminal activities. One only needs to examine the circumstances in which these "activists" left India and the present company they keep to realise this. It is possible some of them are still rightfully pissed off about the raid on the Golden Temple in '84. But formation of Khalistan does not serve their interests.

deanCommie 3y ago
> Your framing is uninformed (if one were charitable, malicious if one weren't) I deserve this call-out. I acknowledge I'm uninformed, and I am attempting to get more informed through the various discussions on this thread. But it's VERY hard to fact-check a lot of the things being said. Some are leading with obvious bias. You are not. I'm inclined to believe more of what you have to say. I assure you I am not malicious. I have a great respect for India, Hindus, Sikhs, Punjabs, and Canadians. I have a great disrespect for Narendra Modi and his policies. I do not support terrorism, but I also fall short of saying that non-violent resistance is the only path to liberation. History has vindicated violence as a means to achieve freedom in many contexts. My understanding of the history of tensions within India between Sikhs and the rest of the country is painted based on broad incidents, like the assassinations of leaders, Golden Temple, etc. I gather my instincts from that. But for modern perspectives, it is incredibly hard for me from my western bubble to get accurate impartial information or statistics. What percentage of Punjab citizens want independence? What percentage of Punjabi Canadians in the diaspora? What percentage support violence to achieve Khalistan? I would like to learn. Many threads have drawn comparisons to Quebec. I moved to Canada as an immigrant in 1995. I was infatuated with the country. And I was immediately confronted with the country's 2nd largest subdivision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum coming inches within 0.6% of voting to leave. I was furious. I didn't understand. I spent the next decade of my youth joking to anyone who would hear that "Canada should've kicked Quebec out for the vote being so close. They would have died economically, and they would've crawled back begging." Then I looked into the actual history of Quebec and Canada. And I understood just how much propaganda and misinformation exists in English-language Canada that mocks Quebecois uniqueness and interests. And I decided I actually understand why so many Quebecers wanted to separate, but that I wanted them to stay because their uniqueness is vital to the Canadian spirit. I can't imagine what I would think if the history was as violent as it was with Sikhs within India. Which is why I keep doubting the premise that these sentiments only exist in the diaspora outside of Punjab.
- kaycey2022 3y ago
  Reading this is so frustrating I don't even know where to begin. I was writing a long reply to you some time back.. and I just deleted it all. I thought there is no point. I don't think you are insincere. I'm certain that you are a very good person. But there is a certain arrogance in trying to understand things you are not equipped to understand. Not being equipped to understand things is not always a bad thing. And it certainly does not mean that things are always out of your control. I must admit that I'm not articulate or authoritative to present this myself. I would recommend listening to this conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpa597jg4uY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpa597jg4uY with as much open mindedness as you can muster.

screye 3y ago

Watching Americans map their ideas around rabid white nationalism onto Hindus says more about the naturally violent tendencies of the west than it does about Indians. Typing hindu in all caps does not change the heterogeneity of the people and it doesn't change the millenia long welcoming nature of the native people of this land. The HINDU only exists in the imagination of the western academic.

deanCommie 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narendra_Modi#Hindutva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narendra_Modi#Hindutva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva Are these western (I'm not American) inventions?
- screye 3y ago
  No, but framing them as a religious crusade is. > almost fascist in the classical sense, ethnic absolutism I would be very careful with using Wikipedia as a source for politically fraught & contemporary issues. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva#:~:text=Hindutva%20ideology%20has%20focused%20on%20the%20following%20issues%3A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva#:~:text=Hindutva%20id... When the article moves from the the editorialized introduction to their stated goals, it doesn't sound as bad. > Replace "pseudo-secularism" with "true secularism", the latter being the Western-style separation of religion and state. Decentralize and reform the Indian economy, end the socialist, centrally-planned, state-owned economic model. Address Christian and Islamic proselytization, religious conversion practices and the arithmetic of religious communities in India; insist that Muslims and Christians accept its doctrine of equality of religions. That's western Libertarianism in a nutshell.