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I recently read Rubicon by Tom Holland, and honestly I came away from that book feeling like it's Sulla, not Caesar, who truly deserves the blame for the downfa

by bigstrat2003 3y ago

I recently read Rubicon by Tom Holland, and honestly I came away from that book feeling like it's Sulla, not Caesar, who truly deserves the blame for the downfall of the Republic. Like yeah, Caesar crossed the Rubicon, but that seal was broken decades earlier by Sulla. If Caesar hadn't done it, someone else would have because it was clear that there would be no real consequences as long as you could win the war. And then Sulla painted the town red with blood to get rid of his enemies. All the reforms in the world can't undo that kind of damage to the social fabric, or so I would think. I am admittedly not the most knowledgeable about this topic, but it really does seem like Sulla should get the blame that Caesar does. Also, one thing that struck me about the Republic is that it worked right up until people stopped upholding the social norms that made it work. And while one might say the lesson is "make your system of government work without social norms", I wonder if such a thing is possible. Looking at the US government it seems damaged (not broken yet, at least) precisely because we have stopped upholding the social norms that made it work. This being despite the fact that the US constitution seems to be more robust than what the Romans had! It really makes me wonder if any form of government, no matter what, absolutely relies on social norms to work well (and breaks down when those norms do).

digging 3y ago
Sulla often gets the opposite treatment because he retired from dictatorship, but it's important to keep in mind exactly the problems you raise. Mass murder causes stress to a society, regardless of intent.
lainga 3y ago
"Time was when men could (so to speak) of a given man, by nourishing and decorating him with fit appliances, to the due pitch, make themselves a King, almost as the Bees do ... How such Ideals do realise themselves; and grow, wondrously, from amid the incongruous ever-fluctuating chaos of the Actual ... How they grow; and, after long stormy growth, bloom out mature, supreme; then quickly (for the blossom is brief) fall into decay; sorrowfully dwindle; and crumble down, or rush down, noisily or noiselessly disappearing." (Carlyle's history of the French Revolution)
Eumenes 3y ago
The entire civil war and times surrounding Marius and Sulla would make an amazing movie. Its a real shocker that Hollywood hasn't picked it up yet. Not that I trust Hollywood to make anything good anymore. I think Caesar gets alot of attention due to the way he was murdered. And it was the "end" of the Republic. You also have Marc Antony and Cleopatra in there, which is a good story.
url00 3y ago
This is very poignant. I have come to similar conclusions w.r.t societal systems only last as long as the social norms continue - the actual legal framework and structure is secondary to the larger cultural imperatives that brought it about in the first place. And as you say, history directly plays into the shift of possible actions by social elites/leaders. Once change starts, change itself can become as social norm and seen as acceptable by society at large (at least to a point in a given time period).
Exoristos 3y ago
People, historically, have often had successful lives with social norms but no government (as we think of it), but never with a government and no social norms.
seanw444 3y ago
This is the conclusion I've come to. Societal decay causes nations with even the most solid foundations to topple. There's really no way around it. A phrase to summarize the phenomenon is: "Politics is downstream from culture." We focus too much on slapping bandaids on society through increasing bloat of government and adding more laws to the pile, when the real root of the problem is our culture is falling apart. No amount of laws is going to fix that. I parallel it to medications. You get one illness, so you get prescribed a medication. But then that medication causes an unusual reaction with your body, so you're given another medication to fix that one. But that medication has adverse effects when taken in conjunction with the first one, so now you need to take another medication to fix that... and it continues until you have a daily ritual of popping 20 pills to solve a trivial health condition. The US is taking way too many medications, and not going on the proper diet to solve its health issues. That can be said both literally, and in the metaphorical sense.
- araes 3y ago
  You use the phrase Societal Decay. I think you can say it has many similarities to a corpse. Not to be gross, just you get a lot of the same terms. The country freezes in rigor mortis, and can no longer take actions. Politics or governance often feels like its experience brain death. You get bloat and deflating effects, bubbles that inflate and pop. You get a lot of social events that humans would describe as "putrid". You get flight or escape of those that can leave for a new host, others flee to the remaining healthy areas. You have external "parasites" / enemies removing portions of the empire/nation. The process usually results with breakup and collapse in prior body segments.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    Heart disease fits the best. Your heart is dying, it can't pump blood properly. To compensate it tries to grow larger, it swells and you get a giant heart. At some point it collapses since the problem was that the heart was leaky or the arteries got clogged or the muscles has some issue etc, growing larger can compensate in the short term but eventually you die anyway. So it is similar to how a government that tries to grab more power and become larger is a red flag for corruption or inefficiency. The problem isn't that it tries to grow, the problem is that it is corrupt and inefficient in the first place, the country is then dying no matter what. Countries can be replaced however, and small governments are easier to replace than large ones, so ideally should fix the government before it grows too large and powerful to easily be replaced.
henrikschroder 3y ago
> Rubicon by Tom Holland I'm currently listening my way through The Rest Is History, the podcast he does with Dominic Sandbrook. Very entertaning, highly recommended!
- 12907835202 3y ago
  Worth starting from ep.1 or just diving in where it's at now?
  - henrikschroder 3y ago
    Every episode is pretty stand-alone and specific, so pick episodes with topics that interest you.
- url00 3y ago
  Me too! It’s definitely my favorite podcast at the moment. The series on Churchill in particular was very entertaining and educational for me.

digging 3y ago

Sulla often gets the opposite treatment because he retired from dictatorship, but it's important to keep in mind exactly the problems you raise. Mass murder causes stress to a society, regardless of intent.

lainga 3y ago

"Time was when men could (so to speak) of a given man, by nourishing and decorating him with fit appliances, to the due pitch, make themselves a King, almost as the Bees do ... How such Ideals do realise themselves; and grow, wondrously, from amid the incongruous ever-fluctuating chaos of the Actual ... How they grow; and, after long stormy growth, bloom out mature, supreme; then quickly (for the blossom is brief) fall into decay; sorrowfully dwindle; and crumble down, or rush down, noisily or noiselessly disappearing." (Carlyle's history of the French Revolution)

Eumenes 3y ago

The entire civil war and times surrounding Marius and Sulla would make an amazing movie. Its a real shocker that Hollywood hasn't picked it up yet. Not that I trust Hollywood to make anything good anymore. I think Caesar gets alot of attention due to the way he was murdered. And it was the "end" of the Republic. You also have Marc Antony and Cleopatra in there, which is a good story.

url00 3y ago

This is very poignant. I have come to similar conclusions w.r.t societal systems only last as long as the social norms continue - the actual legal framework and structure is secondary to the larger cultural imperatives that brought it about in the first place. And as you say, history directly plays into the shift of possible actions by social elites/leaders. Once change starts, change itself can become as social norm and seen as acceptable by society at large (at least to a point in a given time period).

Exoristos 3y ago

People, historically, have often had successful lives with social norms but no government (as we think of it), but never with a government and no social norms.

seanw444 3y ago

This is the conclusion I've come to. Societal decay causes nations with even the most solid foundations to topple. There's really no way around it. A phrase to summarize the phenomenon is: "Politics is downstream from culture." We focus too much on slapping bandaids on society through increasing bloat of government and adding more laws to the pile, when the real root of the problem is our culture is falling apart. No amount of laws is going to fix that. I parallel it to medications. You get one illness, so you get prescribed a medication. But then that medication causes an unusual reaction with your body, so you're given another medication to fix that one. But that medication has adverse effects when taken in conjunction with the first one, so now you need to take another medication to fix that... and it continues until you have a daily ritual of popping 20 pills to solve a trivial health condition. The US is taking way too many medications, and not going on the proper diet to solve its health issues. That can be said both literally, and in the metaphorical sense.

araes 3y ago
You use the phrase Societal Decay. I think you can say it has many similarities to a corpse. Not to be gross, just you get a lot of the same terms. The country freezes in rigor mortis, and can no longer take actions. Politics or governance often feels like its experience brain death. You get bloat and deflating effects, bubbles that inflate and pop. You get a lot of social events that humans would describe as "putrid". You get flight or escape of those that can leave for a new host, others flee to the remaining healthy areas. You have external "parasites" / enemies removing portions of the empire/nation. The process usually results with breakup and collapse in prior body segments.
- Jensson 3y ago
  Heart disease fits the best. Your heart is dying, it can't pump blood properly. To compensate it tries to grow larger, it swells and you get a giant heart. At some point it collapses since the problem was that the heart was leaky or the arteries got clogged or the muscles has some issue etc, growing larger can compensate in the short term but eventually you die anyway. So it is similar to how a government that tries to grab more power and become larger is a red flag for corruption or inefficiency. The problem isn't that it tries to grow, the problem is that it is corrupt and inefficient in the first place, the country is then dying no matter what. Countries can be replaced however, and small governments are easier to replace than large ones, so ideally should fix the government before it grows too large and powerful to easily be replaced.

henrikschroder 3y ago

> Rubicon by Tom Holland I'm currently listening my way through The Rest Is History, the podcast he does with Dominic Sandbrook. Very entertaning, highly recommended!

12907835202 3y ago
Worth starting from ep.1 or just diving in where it's at now?
- henrikschroder 3y ago
  Every episode is pretty stand-alone and specific, so pick episodes with topics that interest you.
url00 3y ago
Me too! It’s definitely my favorite podcast at the moment. The series on Churchill in particular was very entertaining and educational for me.