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GM Once Viewed Tesla as a ‘Bunch of Engineers Playing with Laptop Batteries’

15 points by rmason 3y ago

tus666 3y ago
Tesla is overestimated, not underestimated. They haven't released a new car in over 3 years, on top of a incredibly small and bland model range to begin with. Several other companies are into their Nth generation of electric pickups before Tesla has even released their first. Almost all other car makers are going electric, some with close to a century of experience building cars and massive model ranges. Tesla "got there first" and has a small lead in battery tech and charging networks, but that lead is fading fast.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  You mean you don't have faith in elons cyber truck
- panick21_ 3y ago
  > their Nth generation of electric pickups before Tesla has even released their first The Cybertruck is about to come out this year, the production line is literally running with 1000s of people working there. Ford has a truck out but the numbers aren't exactly gangbusters. GM has 1 with totally insignificant sales, basically a novelty item so they can say the have a product. Stellantis has sold non. Neither Toyota nor anybody else has an electric pickup. Rivian has one but they are also a small startup that has a lot of issues with scaling and finances. Claiming that Tesla is so far behind is pretty much nonsense. And even if GM releases another pickup first, their Ultium battery is having massive issues and they barley produce any volume anyway, look at their Lincoln. People have to remember that the pickup market in the US is basically 2 million vehicles a year. This year about 100k-120k will be electric. Tesla has a huge factory with integrated battery production, that line has much higher capacity then any of the lines currently being set up for pickup EV. Ford is lacking batteries as they were very late in setting up their own battery factory and that will make it hard for them to scale the F-150 and if they do they wont have batteries for their other EV lines. > They haven't released a new car in over 3 years They have opened 2 new factories, and have made their car into the most sold and most profitable car in the world. And somehow that's a failure? > Almost all other car makers are going electric, some with close to a century of experience building cars and massive model ranges. Its funny how the goal post moves. It used to be that Tesla would never be able to build a car at volume and they suck at manufacturing. Now both VW and Toyota have publicly stated how brilliant Tesla is at producing cars at volume so that argument simply doesn't hold water anymore. Now this is a new one, 'these company have 100 years of experiance in manufacturing, no way Tesla can do it' is out of the water. So now we have moved on to 'these companies have 100s of years of experience in manufacturing multiple different cars' so Tesla will never be able to do that. Have you ever asked yourself why Tesla hasn't interdicted new models? Do you really think it would have been hard for them to turn the Model 3/Y platform into a few other shapes? The reason is that batteries are the limiting factor, and if you can use all your batteries on fewer models then your overall manufacturing cost and complexity are lower. Why build a few low volume model version if your total sales aren't gone increase from that? > Tesla "got there first" and has a small lead in battery tech and charging networks, but that lead is fading fast. Tesla doesn't actually have that much of a lead in battery tech that is all that relevant. Tesla position in the market is not because of better batteries, that's a total misunderstanding of the market. And their lead in charging networks is not actually getting smaller. In the US specifically their lead is actually increasing. And their lead battery technology is actually increasing relative other car markets. Tesla is making its own battery, even if they are the same quality and price as other battery makers, not paying huge part of the value of your car to a battery maker is an advantage by itself. Tesla own battery lines have to potential to be very cheap and that combined with not paying profit to the battery maker will be a big advantage.
tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
Yeah, and what do you know, they were right. Tesla utterly squandered their first-mover advantage. I’ve talked to multiple Tesla owners (despite being a group I actively try to avoid) at charging stations and such, all lamenting the completely absurd quirks of their car’s UX, and the ridiculous mismatch between their advertised battery life and what they get in reality. I’ve got a non-Tesla EV and I think that it’s great. So do plenty of others. Given what I’ve experienced in Teslas, I am completely happy with GM’s characterisation. Everyone else will flatten Tesla because ultimately the premise that people want this much computer in their car is flawed for the vast vast vast majority of people.
- clay_the_ripper 3y ago
  I have a model Y lease that’s up in March. Can’t wait to get rid of the stupid thing. It’s amazingly fun to drive and very fast. Other than that, the car is a pile of garbage. The range is about half what’s rated, the charging speed is about half what’s advertised, the build quality is terrible, and the service is nonexistent. True story: the alignment on the poorly designed trunk is way off. Took it to the dealer, and the said they don’t fix teslas. Actually true. Directed me to find a third party body shop. Didn’t bother, will return it broken and I’m sure I will get absolutely hosed by them. They treat their customers exactly how Elon views humanity: expendable. Will never, ever buy any Tesla product. Ever.
- catlover76 3y ago
  > I’ve talked to multiple Tesla owners (despite being a group I actively try to avoid) This would be impossible in California; perfectly normal people who don't particularly like Elon Musk own Teslas here. > Everyone else will flatten Tesla because ultimately the premise that people want this much computer in their car is flawed for the vast vast vast majority of people. Unfortunately, all the other carmakers seem to be putting a bunch of software and spyware in their cars as well. :/ Seems pretty hard to get a decent, working, analog car these days.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    > Seems pretty hard to get a decent, working, analog car these days. Its not hard. Its basically impossible and illegal specially for a new car. New regulation require a huge amount of electrical safety equipment. And the are already regulation to push that up even more, any new car designed in the last couple years has even more.
panick21_ 3y ago
Nikola up to its old tricks again pretending to be Tesla 2.0. They are not, they are a company who threw lies and scams got so much money they could actually pay other companies to produce truck for them. They are a company dead in the water with no technological advantage that is simply living of money raised in a scam. They are not Tesla 2.0, but that's certainty how they scammed all those poor consumers into buying their stock. New CEO apparently trying the same playbook.
- sschueller 3y ago
  You mean like Elon did with Tesla? How many people have paid for FSD? How many of those cars are no longer on the road due to being too old or broken? Those people will never see FSD nor 10k they spent in it. What happened to the robotaxies making you money so the car pays for itself? How many people bought that lie and bought a car?
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    Two wrongs make a right?

15 points by rmason 3y ago

Tesla is overestimated, not underestimated. They haven't released a new car in over 3 years, on top of a incredibly small and bland model range to begin with. Several other companies are into their Nth generation of electric pickups before Tesla has even released their first. Almost all other car makers are going electric, some with close to a century of experience building cars and massive model ranges. Tesla "got there first" and has a small lead in battery tech and charging networks, but that lead is fading fast.

cyanydeez 3y ago
You mean you don't have faith in elons cyber truck
panick21_ 3y ago
> their Nth generation of electric pickups before Tesla has even released their first The Cybertruck is about to come out this year, the production line is literally running with 1000s of people working there. Ford has a truck out but the numbers aren't exactly gangbusters. GM has 1 with totally insignificant sales, basically a novelty item so they can say the have a product. Stellantis has sold non. Neither Toyota nor anybody else has an electric pickup. Rivian has one but they are also a small startup that has a lot of issues with scaling and finances. Claiming that Tesla is so far behind is pretty much nonsense. And even if GM releases another pickup first, their Ultium battery is having massive issues and they barley produce any volume anyway, look at their Lincoln. People have to remember that the pickup market in the US is basically 2 million vehicles a year. This year about 100k-120k will be electric. Tesla has a huge factory with integrated battery production, that line has much higher capacity then any of the lines currently being set up for pickup EV. Ford is lacking batteries as they were very late in setting up their own battery factory and that will make it hard for them to scale the F-150 and if they do they wont have batteries for their other EV lines. > They haven't released a new car in over 3 years They have opened 2 new factories, and have made their car into the most sold and most profitable car in the world. And somehow that's a failure? > Almost all other car makers are going electric, some with close to a century of experience building cars and massive model ranges. Its funny how the goal post moves. It used to be that Tesla would never be able to build a car at volume and they suck at manufacturing. Now both VW and Toyota have publicly stated how brilliant Tesla is at producing cars at volume so that argument simply doesn't hold water anymore. Now this is a new one, 'these company have 100 years of experiance in manufacturing, no way Tesla can do it' is out of the water. So now we have moved on to 'these companies have 100s of years of experience in manufacturing multiple different cars' so Tesla will never be able to do that. Have you ever asked yourself why Tesla hasn't interdicted new models? Do you really think it would have been hard for them to turn the Model 3/Y platform into a few other shapes? The reason is that batteries are the limiting factor, and if you can use all your batteries on fewer models then your overall manufacturing cost and complexity are lower. Why build a few low volume model version if your total sales aren't gone increase from that? > Tesla "got there first" and has a small lead in battery tech and charging networks, but that lead is fading fast. Tesla doesn't actually have that much of a lead in battery tech that is all that relevant. Tesla position in the market is not because of better batteries, that's a total misunderstanding of the market. And their lead in charging networks is not actually getting smaller. In the US specifically their lead is actually increasing. And their lead battery technology is actually increasing relative other car markets. Tesla is making its own battery, even if they are the same quality and price as other battery makers, not paying huge part of the value of your car to a battery maker is an advantage by itself. Tesla own battery lines have to potential to be very cheap and that combined with not paying profit to the battery maker will be a big advantage.

tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago

Yeah, and what do you know, they were right. Tesla utterly squandered their first-mover advantage. I’ve talked to multiple Tesla owners (despite being a group I actively try to avoid) at charging stations and such, all lamenting the completely absurd quirks of their car’s UX, and the ridiculous mismatch between their advertised battery life and what they get in reality. I’ve got a non-Tesla EV and I think that it’s great. So do plenty of others. Given what I’ve experienced in Teslas, I am completely happy with GM’s characterisation. Everyone else will flatten Tesla because ultimately the premise that people want this much computer in their car is flawed for the vast vast vast majority of people.

clay_the_ripper 3y ago
I have a model Y lease that’s up in March. Can’t wait to get rid of the stupid thing. It’s amazingly fun to drive and very fast. Other than that, the car is a pile of garbage. The range is about half what’s rated, the charging speed is about half what’s advertised, the build quality is terrible, and the service is nonexistent. True story: the alignment on the poorly designed trunk is way off. Took it to the dealer, and the said they don’t fix teslas. Actually true. Directed me to find a third party body shop. Didn’t bother, will return it broken and I’m sure I will get absolutely hosed by them. They treat their customers exactly how Elon views humanity: expendable. Will never, ever buy any Tesla product. Ever.
catlover76 3y ago
> I’ve talked to multiple Tesla owners (despite being a group I actively try to avoid) This would be impossible in California; perfectly normal people who don't particularly like Elon Musk own Teslas here. > Everyone else will flatten Tesla because ultimately the premise that people want this much computer in their car is flawed for the vast vast vast majority of people. Unfortunately, all the other carmakers seem to be putting a bunch of software and spyware in their cars as well. :/ Seems pretty hard to get a decent, working, analog car these days.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  > Seems pretty hard to get a decent, working, analog car these days. Its not hard. Its basically impossible and illegal specially for a new car. New regulation require a huge amount of electrical safety equipment. And the are already regulation to push that up even more, any new car designed in the last couple years has even more.

panick21_ 3y ago

Nikola up to its old tricks again pretending to be Tesla 2.0. They are not, they are a company who threw lies and scams got so much money they could actually pay other companies to produce truck for them. They are a company dead in the water with no technological advantage that is simply living of money raised in a scam. They are not Tesla 2.0, but that's certainty how they scammed all those poor consumers into buying their stock. New CEO apparently trying the same playbook.

sschueller 3y ago
You mean like Elon did with Tesla? How many people have paid for FSD? How many of those cars are no longer on the road due to being too old or broken? Those people will never see FSD nor 10k they spent in it. What happened to the robotaxies making you money so the car pays for itself? How many people bought that lie and bought a car?
- panick21_ 3y ago
  Two wrongs make a right?