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> Animal 15 began to lose coordination, and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers.

hulitu 3y ago
> > Animal 15 began to lose coordination, and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. And what exactly is not humane here ? /s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_cam... and so on and so forth..
Etherlord87 3y ago
My dog sometimes shakes uncontrollably when there's e.g. fireworks outside. I'm a vegetarian BTW, so I'm not arguing for testing on animals, just that it's easy to over-interpret.
- scoodah 3y ago
  Yes and your dog does that because it’s scared and stressed out. Why is that an acceptable thing to subject animals to willingly?
  - Etherlord87 3y ago
    Ask the society. Apparently the majority accepts fireworks. I don't see an article on hackernews describing how terrible the fireworks are because an animal was shaking uncontrollably. What I also wanted to communicate is that shaking uncontrollably isn't necessarily connected to some terrible, unbearable trauma, which I think is something implied by people using the quote.
    - latexr 3y ago
      > What I also wanted to communicate is that shaking uncontrollably isn't necessarily connected to some terrible, unbearable trauma Unless your dog used to be fine with fireworks and then one day started shaking uncontrollably whenever they go off. Then you might reasonably conclude that something happened to instil that fear. A loud continuous noise at irregular intervals from which you do not understand the source is a reasonable thing to be scared of. Being frightened of a particular person, especially one that regularly experiments on you is a strong indicator that you were treated some way you don’t like.
      - Etherlord87 3y ago
        >> What I also wanted to communicate is that shaking uncontrollably isn't necessarily connected to some terrible, unbearable trauma > Unless your dog used to be fine with fireworks and then one day started shaking uncontrollably whenever they go off. Then you might reasonably conclude that something happened to instil that fear. Sure, you can argue that, and I would have some counterarguments. But please notice how I didn't say "What I also wanted to communicate is that shaking uncontrollably isn't necessarily connected to fear", I said something different, didn't I? Strawmaning will lead us nowhere. I'm trying not to strawman, but the OP of this thread pasted a quote, without any clarification what he means, so I can only guess. It wasn't even the only time he did that in this comment section - as if this quote was the most significant aspect of the article, proving the "gruesomeness" mentioned in the title. Of course maybe it was just a random quote, we will never know if the OP doesn't care to clarify. So what I point out is: "uncontrollable shaking" can be easily over-interpreted. Probably everyone here shivered at least once. Yes, in that case the mechanism is clear and not related to any kind of fear, but we don't even now if it was in case of the macaque. The shaking could as well be caused by the damage to the brain, which should be the first explanation that comes to mind in the context of operations on the brain. I understand the outrage, but outrage doesn't justify bad arguments, and bad arguments don't help the cause. We could have an interesting conversation on the morality of testing on animals, instead of comparing a single sentence of a monkey shaking uncontrollably, to 4 Wikipedia articles about forced experiments on humans.

hulitu 3y ago

> > Animal 15 began to lose coordination, and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. And what exactly is not humane here ? /s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_cam... and so on and so forth..

Etherlord87 3y ago

My dog sometimes shakes uncontrollably when there's e.g. fireworks outside. I'm a vegetarian BTW, so I'm not arguing for testing on animals, just that it's easy to over-interpret.

scoodah 3y ago
Yes and your dog does that because it’s scared and stressed out. Why is that an acceptable thing to subject animals to willingly?
- Etherlord87 3y ago
  Ask the society. Apparently the majority accepts fireworks. I don't see an article on hackernews describing how terrible the fireworks are because an animal was shaking uncontrollably. What I also wanted to communicate is that shaking uncontrollably isn't necessarily connected to some terrible, unbearable trauma, which I think is something implied by people using the quote.
  - latexr 3y ago
    > What I also wanted to communicate is that shaking uncontrollably isn't necessarily connected to some terrible, unbearable trauma Unless your dog used to be fine with fireworks and then one day started shaking uncontrollably whenever they go off. Then you might reasonably conclude that something happened to instil that fear. A loud continuous noise at irregular intervals from which you do not understand the source is a reasonable thing to be scared of. Being frightened of a particular person, especially one that regularly experiments on you is a strong indicator that you were treated some way you don’t like.
    - Etherlord87 3y ago
      >> What I also wanted to communicate is that shaking uncontrollably isn't necessarily connected to some terrible, unbearable trauma > Unless your dog used to be fine with fireworks and then one day started shaking uncontrollably whenever they go off. Then you might reasonably conclude that something happened to instil that fear. Sure, you can argue that, and I would have some counterarguments. But please notice how I didn't say "What I also wanted to communicate is that shaking uncontrollably isn't necessarily connected to fear", I said something different, didn't I? Strawmaning will lead us nowhere. I'm trying not to strawman, but the OP of this thread pasted a quote, without any clarification what he means, so I can only guess. It wasn't even the only time he did that in this comment section - as if this quote was the most significant aspect of the article, proving the "gruesomeness" mentioned in the title. Of course maybe it was just a random quote, we will never know if the OP doesn't care to clarify. So what I point out is: "uncontrollable shaking" can be easily over-interpreted. Probably everyone here shivered at least once. Yes, in that case the mechanism is clear and not related to any kind of fear, but we don't even now if it was in case of the macaque. The shaking could as well be caused by the damage to the brain, which should be the first explanation that comes to mind in the context of operations on the brain. I understand the outrage, but outrage doesn't justify bad arguments, and bad arguments don't help the cause. We could have an interesting conversation on the morality of testing on animals, instead of comparing a single sentence of a monkey shaking uncontrollably, to 4 Wikipedia articles about forced experiments on humans.