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> HTML and DOM lack those because that’s not what they’re for. Stop trying to build desktop and mobile applications using a document markup language. If you’re

> HTML and DOM lack those because that’s not what they’re for. Stop trying to build desktop and mobile applications using a document markup language. If you’re building a client-side application, use the platforms’ native languages and technologies. People love to say this here but I've never seen a good reason for it. Web technologies are far and away the best I've used for creating user interfaces. And there are significant advantages to building on the web. How else can someone jump into collaborating on a document or a picture with me — without installing anything — after receiving only a short text?

bena 3y ago
HTML and DOM are genuinely poor media for doing that though. A lot of web development is working around them. However, it’s the only common UI we have. It is defined outside the scope of any one platform. And if you want to serve HTML, you have to conform to the spec. There is no UIML. If there were and if it were served via HTTP, we could have all of what you want AND a better web development experience
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  Okay, but why do you say that? How is <insert favorite native UI toolkit> better?
  - bena 3y ago
    All native toolkits are better to work with for UI than HTML+DOM. To paraphrase: saying HTML+DOM is great because it works everywhere is like saying anal sex is the best because it works on everyone. Eventually, in any significantly complex application, you will have to work around the DOM. Or kick to rolling your own controls because HTML doesn't have what you need. React, Angular, Vue, Bootstrap, Tailwind, Material, the others, they all exist because HTML+DOM is not made for what it has been forced to do. "Centering a div" is a meme for a reason. You don't have those problems with native UI.
krapp 3y ago
>How else can someone jump into collaborating on a document or a picture with me — without installing anything — after receiving only a short text? To be fair, that doesn't require HTML and the DOM, it just requires a network. It just happens that the network we have is used to serve HTML and everyone already had the app installed (browsers) when "web apps" became a thing.
- eschaton 3y ago
  Indeed, some of us were doing it many years ago in native applications, no HTTP involved, on hardware a fraction as powerful as the average smart watch.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    What is "it" in that sentence?
    - eschaton 3y ago
      The thread is about collaborative applications.
      - jakelazaroff 3y ago
        Do you care to, like, describe what you’re talking about?
marcus_holmes 3y ago
> Web technologies are far and away the best I've used for creating user interfaces. Which other ones did you try? Because web technologies weren't even designed for creating user interfaces.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  They very much were.

bena 3y ago

HTML and DOM are genuinely poor media for doing that though. A lot of web development is working around them. However, it’s the only common UI we have. It is defined outside the scope of any one platform. And if you want to serve HTML, you have to conform to the spec. There is no UIML. If there were and if it were served via HTTP, we could have all of what you want AND a better web development experience

jakelazaroff 3y ago
Okay, but why do you say that? How is <insert favorite native UI toolkit> better?
- bena 3y ago
  All native toolkits are better to work with for UI than HTML+DOM. To paraphrase: saying HTML+DOM is great because it works everywhere is like saying anal sex is the best because it works on everyone. Eventually, in any significantly complex application, you will have to work around the DOM. Or kick to rolling your own controls because HTML doesn't have what you need. React, Angular, Vue, Bootstrap, Tailwind, Material, the others, they all exist because HTML+DOM is not made for what it has been forced to do. "Centering a div" is a meme for a reason. You don't have those problems with native UI.

krapp 3y ago

>How else can someone jump into collaborating on a document or a picture with me — without installing anything — after receiving only a short text? To be fair, that doesn't require HTML and the DOM, it just requires a network. It just happens that the network we have is used to serve HTML and everyone already had the app installed (browsers) when "web apps" became a thing.

eschaton 3y ago
Indeed, some of us were doing it many years ago in native applications, no HTTP involved, on hardware a fraction as powerful as the average smart watch.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  What is "it" in that sentence?
  - eschaton 3y ago
    The thread is about collaborative applications.
    - jakelazaroff 3y ago
      Do you care to, like, describe what you’re talking about?

marcus_holmes 3y ago

> Web technologies are far and away the best I've used for creating user interfaces. Which other ones did you try? Because web technologies weren't even designed for creating user interfaces.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
They very much were.