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Consider someone 20 years ago saying (of general software), “Open Source Will Win”. Were they right or wrong? I don’t think there’s a simple answer. (Open sourc

by ks2048 3y ago

Consider someone 20 years ago saying (of general software), “Open Source Will Win”. Were they right or wrong? I don’t think there’s a simple answer. (Open source is crucial and ubiquitous, but much of the most-used software is closed, etc). I assume AI software will likewise be a complicated mix for the foreseeable future.

logicchains 3y ago
In terms of "stuff that only closed source software can do", apart from 4/5G cellphone modems every large closed source program has an open source alternative, albeit potentially one with a less polished user experience.
- ks2048 3y ago
  Probably true, but “existing” is different than “winning” (cue joke about the year of the Linux desktop). Also, I’ll say “winning” may not imply being better (there are other factors), but I was taking “winning” to mean market share.
  - mistercheph 3y ago
    You can cue the joke all you want, no one is getting on stage to tell it. Open source software is viral and self-propelled by nature. Corporate technologists may be on the retreat, spending billions to build moats for themselves with proprietary locked down hardware and cloud services, but these defenses won't last long, and once breached, the blow will be fatal. But please, tell me the one about the guy using 3DS Max, Direct3D 12, the intel C compiler, IDA pro, winrar, windows media player, uTorrent, and a proprietary cryptocurrency client. You may see it as the midnight hour, but the entire industry is still in its infancy, maybe yet to even emerge from its womb. imagine how conway's game of software licensing plays out over 200 years.
- raincole 3y ago
  I wish it were true lol.
keyle 3y ago
Open-source (of general software) won and is winning every day. For profit code is written on top of open-source, every single day. If your metric for code success is the money it returns, then that is the only metric in which open-source has lost. Humanity as a whole would be behind if it wasn't for open-source. I'm not a FOSS/FSF/OSS freak, but credit is due where it's due. We're all building on the shoulders of unsung giants.
- ks2048 3y ago
  Yes, there’s a case for “open source has won”. I guess I was saying it depends on how you define it. For example the percentage of personal computers using an open OS is relatively low. But, eg, macOS depends on a lot of open source. Every Google search is going through closed software, but also internally uses lots of open source, etc. So it’s a mix and complicated.
  - keyle 3y ago
    It's not that complicated. The closed-source software wouldn't be where they are today if it weren't from the open-source code they built upon. Every protocols under the sun that is in use today has an open source implementation used by closed source software and OSes. Why? Because if they didn't, those protocols wouldn't be popular nor used. From file types handling, to images, to audio driver code, TCP/IP libraries, every cryptography implementation, every webpage you visit; from top to bottom is mostly made of open-source code. Unless you're talking about rockets' real time OS, even the most closed platforms would be made of roughly 50% open-source code.
    - wokwokwok 3y ago
      Did it 'win' then? Come on, it's not that cut and dry. I'm paying a monthly subscription for a dozen services, and there's exactly zero possibility that I could use an open source equivalent for all of them. Maybe a few... but, mostly not. Is that winning? The 'most important part' of software being trapped behind a monthly subscription? Where I have no freedom to choose what runs on my phone? I think the free software foundation might take issue with the parent statement you're responding to: > Open-source (of general software) won and is winning every day. The battle is not won. If you re-frame the statement as 'open source is used by lots of people' then suuuuure, once you change what you're talking about, then by all means. Absolutely. There's a lot of great open source software. ...but that's not 'open source winning', that's just 'people like free stuff they don't have to pay for or make any effort to get'.
fuzztester 3y ago
Quote: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
- kybernetikos 3y ago
  But it's important to remember that just because someone is laughing at you doesn't mean you will definitely win.
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    True, obviously. But it was a quote, not a rule.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  Google it. Fun. Not only Gandhi (misattributed, maybe), but Red Hat used it.
raincole 3y ago
On one hand the cloud-based apps trend is the ultimate win for open source: now you can develop on a Linux machine even if 99% of your customers are using Windows. On the other hand, cloud-based apps are the ultimate closed source code. Now you can't even touch the binary.
mrtksn 3y ago
It's more complicated than that. Open Source platforms win, Open Source products don't - but there are exceptions to both. I guess there's a point between pain to use and pain to pay and pain to comply with the restrictions and whatever product or platform gravitates to the lowest of the sum of those for each use case wins. Obviously, this assumes good enough outputs. IMHO, Open Source AI will win because the restrictions of closed source one are too high and their lower price point through deep pockets doesn't compensate enough for that. The UX is not that different.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  > Open Source platforms win, Open Source products don't Except for on laptops where Windows and macOS rule. And on phones, where iOS isn't dead yet. And on gaming computers, where the Steam Deck is very new and nowhere near PS5 or Xbox. And on the server where there's been a mass migration towards proprietary cloud platforms. Really the only place open source wins is when programmers are the only ones deciding on the product. Which makes sense, because programmers are the only people who benefit from something being open source. For everyone else it's just a question of which set of programmers you pay.
rtcoms 3y ago
I would say Postgres won over Oracle db Linux won over windows/MacOs on the server Various languages and framework like Ruby, Python, JavaScript won over Visual Basic and Flash. Washout these developers would've been paying millions of dollars more in proprietary software.

by ks2048 3y ago

logicchains 3y ago

In terms of "stuff that only closed source software can do", apart from 4/5G cellphone modems every large closed source program has an open source alternative, albeit potentially one with a less polished user experience.

ks2048 3y ago
Probably true, but “existing” is different than “winning” (cue joke about the year of the Linux desktop). Also, I’ll say “winning” may not imply being better (there are other factors), but I was taking “winning” to mean market share.
- mistercheph 3y ago
  You can cue the joke all you want, no one is getting on stage to tell it. Open source software is viral and self-propelled by nature. Corporate technologists may be on the retreat, spending billions to build moats for themselves with proprietary locked down hardware and cloud services, but these defenses won't last long, and once breached, the blow will be fatal. But please, tell me the one about the guy using 3DS Max, Direct3D 12, the intel C compiler, IDA pro, winrar, windows media player, uTorrent, and a proprietary cryptocurrency client. You may see it as the midnight hour, but the entire industry is still in its infancy, maybe yet to even emerge from its womb. imagine how conway's game of software licensing plays out over 200 years.
raincole 3y ago
I wish it were true lol.

keyle 3y ago

Open-source (of general software) won and is winning every day. For profit code is written on top of open-source, every single day. If your metric for code success is the money it returns, then that is the only metric in which open-source has lost. Humanity as a whole would be behind if it wasn't for open-source. I'm not a FOSS/FSF/OSS freak, but credit is due where it's due. We're all building on the shoulders of unsung giants.

ks2048 3y ago
Yes, there’s a case for “open source has won”. I guess I was saying it depends on how you define it. For example the percentage of personal computers using an open OS is relatively low. But, eg, macOS depends on a lot of open source. Every Google search is going through closed software, but also internally uses lots of open source, etc. So it’s a mix and complicated.
- keyle 3y ago
  It's not that complicated. The closed-source software wouldn't be where they are today if it weren't from the open-source code they built upon. Every protocols under the sun that is in use today has an open source implementation used by closed source software and OSes. Why? Because if they didn't, those protocols wouldn't be popular nor used. From file types handling, to images, to audio driver code, TCP/IP libraries, every cryptography implementation, every webpage you visit; from top to bottom is mostly made of open-source code. Unless you're talking about rockets' real time OS, even the most closed platforms would be made of roughly 50% open-source code.
  - wokwokwok 3y ago
    Did it 'win' then? Come on, it's not that cut and dry. I'm paying a monthly subscription for a dozen services, and there's exactly zero possibility that I could use an open source equivalent for all of them. Maybe a few... but, mostly not. Is that winning? The 'most important part' of software being trapped behind a monthly subscription? Where I have no freedom to choose what runs on my phone? I think the free software foundation might take issue with the parent statement you're responding to: > Open-source (of general software) won and is winning every day. The battle is not won. If you re-frame the statement as 'open source is used by lots of people' then suuuuure, once you change what you're talking about, then by all means. Absolutely. There's a lot of great open source software. ...but that's not 'open source winning', that's just 'people like free stuff they don't have to pay for or make any effort to get'.

fuzztester 3y ago

Quote: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

kybernetikos 3y ago
But it's important to remember that just because someone is laughing at you doesn't mean you will definitely win.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  True, obviously. But it was a quote, not a rule.
fuzztester 3y ago
Google it. Fun. Not only Gandhi (misattributed, maybe), but Red Hat used it.

raincole 3y ago

On one hand the cloud-based apps trend is the ultimate win for open source: now you can develop on a Linux machine even if 99% of your customers are using Windows. On the other hand, cloud-based apps are the ultimate closed source code. Now you can't even touch the binary.

mrtksn 3y ago

It's more complicated than that. Open Source platforms win, Open Source products don't - but there are exceptions to both. I guess there's a point between pain to use and pain to pay and pain to comply with the restrictions and whatever product or platform gravitates to the lowest of the sum of those for each use case wins. Obviously, this assumes good enough outputs. IMHO, Open Source AI will win because the restrictions of closed source one are too high and their lower price point through deep pockets doesn't compensate enough for that. The UX is not that different.

nvm0n2 3y ago
> Open Source platforms win, Open Source products don't Except for on laptops where Windows and macOS rule. And on phones, where iOS isn't dead yet. And on gaming computers, where the Steam Deck is very new and nowhere near PS5 or Xbox. And on the server where there's been a mass migration towards proprietary cloud platforms. Really the only place open source wins is when programmers are the only ones deciding on the product. Which makes sense, because programmers are the only people who benefit from something being open source. For everyone else it's just a question of which set of programmers you pay.

rtcoms 3y ago

I would say Postgres won over Oracle db Linux won over windows/MacOs on the server Various languages and framework like Ruby, Python, JavaScript won over Visual Basic and Flash. Washout these developers would've been paying millions of dollars more in proprietary software.