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I hear you, but it's also really hard from the service provider's perspective because - for many people at least - the allotment of searches starts to become a

I hear you, but it's also really hard from the service provider's perspective because - for many people at least - the allotment of searches starts to become a hinderance on using it. By making it feel a finite resource, some percentage of the users will start to ration their use of your service and/or do some deliberation before using it ("I kinda want to look that up, but I don't know if I want to spend one of my searches"), and introducing that kind of usage friction can even lead to a subtle resentment of your service.

arp242 3y ago
Yeah, exactly. I looked at Kagi last week (first time I had heard of it), when the $10/month plan was "only" 1,000 searches a month and "unlimited" was $25. While I think that I'll probably stay well within 1,000 searches, I'm also not sure, and it's just not something I want to have to worry about (it's ~33/day on average and I doubt I'll ever hit it, but still...) One of the reasons I decided to skip Kagi for now.
- bachmeier 3y ago
  > it's ~33/day on average and I doubt I'll ever hit it That's a bit misleading. If the search engine really is that good, you should use it more, and then all of a sudden you'll hit the cap. I probably don't search that much now but that's because it's not worth the trouble.
  - prepend 3y ago
    I just don’t search that much. And I don’t want to think about how much I search. Comically, the biggest problem I have with signing up since $10 isn’t that much is that I don’t want to have to log into kagi to prove my account. I search on my phone, work computers, random terminals, etc etc. Having to userid and password to all these places disrupts my current UX of 1) open browser, 2) type search (maybe go to ddg.com first). Changing to 1) open browser, 2) log into kagi, 3) search increases my time by 100x I usually use the same browser, but I use incognito or fresh browsers at least once or twice a day.
    - CalebJohn 3y ago
      They have a solution for that, a session link. They pass a token through a query parameter that validates to your account. You set that as the default search engine for each browser, no need to repeatedly sign in. https://kagi.com/search?token=<some-token> https://kagi.com/search?token=<some-token>
  - Semaphor 3y ago
    > If the search engine really is that good, you should use it more, and then all of a sudden you'll hit the cap. FWIW, I searched less with Kagi, mostly because I needed fewer tries ;)
  - freediver 3y ago
    > If the search engine really is that good, you should use it more In practice the opposite happens. Because Kagi is presumeably so good, people use it less, because they find stuff faster. Something that would require 2-3 searches on Google is just one search on Kagi. Anecdotal evidence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37008132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37008132
- jlund-molfese 3y ago
  Wouldn't today's change make you reconsider, because you now no longer have to worry about how much you search for $10/month, it's just unlimited?
  - eep_social 3y ago
    I am not the gp but yes. I had the same concern last time I evaluated Kagi and now I expect to become a paying customer this weekend when I have some time to do all my reading and reconfigure my main devices.
    - hnben 3y ago
      > I am not the gp what is GP? (sorry, I am new to hackernews and don't yet know all the acronyms)
      - comprev 3y ago
        “grand parent” - it’s a way to reference the comment as opposed to user in a thread. “OP” aka “Original Poster” is usually the first in a thread. “PSA” aka “Please See Attached” references a link or attachment to the original post, and is used in the title of the first post, i.e, please look at this webpage I’ve linked to and let’s discuss it. “TFA” aka “The Featured Article” is often used in the discussions and is the same object as the original poster referenced via PSA
      - eep_social 3y ago
        Welcome! And thanks to comprev who has laid it all out above.
  - arp242 3y ago
    Yes, I'll probably check it out and at least consider paying for it, depending on how much I like it (well, once I have a job and some disposable income...) $25/month seemed too much regardless; I don't know the economics behind it but that it's now adjusted to $10/month seems I was right.
  - 3y ago
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Well you should worry! I've heard that when people pass their search limit, the Kagi team shows up with big pick-up trucks to their front yard and start screaming insults, waking neighbours. But seriously, I've seen this comment so many times now, that I'm curious: What is it that you worry about exactly?
  - dbrueck 3y ago
    I didn't post that comment, but I'd suggest it's not necessarily a rational worry at all. It's just human nature that if you tell somebody that something can run out, then some part of their brain will worry about it running out. :)
- lostlogin 3y ago
  You can set notifications and hard limits. I had this reservation and 6 weeks in have gone to the $10 plan and have other family members liking not, so will likely upsize again.
prepend 3y ago
I get that it’s hard, but figure it out. Amazon doesn’t make me subscribe and I can buy 100 hours and use them over 10 years for all they care. I’ve had monthly bills that are a penny from glacier. I don’t think this pricing is because it’s hard on Kagi. I think it’s a dark pattern that once people subscribe they just autopay forever. My dad subscribed to dial up aol until last year. He hasn’t had a phone line for 15 years. You think kagi is going to not charge people if they do zero searches? They’ve already made it a finite resource by charging $5/month for 300 searches. I’m already rationing. They’re just saying it’s $5 if you do 1 or 300. There’s already friction. But friction to dark pattern you into paying more. I mean it’s their prerogative and they can charge whatever they want. I just don’t want another monthly fee. I’d rather just pay once and be done. Sell search tokens or something.
- dbrueck 3y ago
  Oh, I'm not defending their approach per se - I don't want another subscription at that price point either - I'm just saying that it's not as simple as it appears on the surface because the alternate approach has a direct impact on the behavior of a good chunk of the user base, in a way that's not really good for the business or the users. I'd argue that in many cases - including this one - the issue with subscriptions is simply that they are overpriced from the customer's perspective. Reasons for this could be greed, a desire to get to a self-sufficient revenue point too early, worrying about the handful of users that will abuse any sort of unlimited plan. From the customer's perspective, if the cost-vs-benefits don't feel right, then they'll complain about a subscription, but it's not /really/ the main problem in most cases. The most "fair" plan for e.g. Netflix would be if I paid for each thing I watch, but that is effectively a "tax" on usage and negatively affects my usage patterns (from both my perspective and theirs). For example, I'd be super hesitant to browse and try out stuff I might not like. On the flip side, Netflix has now passed 15USD/mo and while it's not a huge chunk of change, I don't feel like I get 15 dollars of value out of it, so I'm thinking of cancelling. If the subscription was an absurdly low 1USD/mo, I wouldn't care about the subscription at all. Kagi's situation is unfortunate for them because they are trying to get people to pay for something that we normally think of as free, so they probably need to lower the price point, at least for now. > Amazon doesn’t make me subscribe and I can buy 100 hours and use them over 10 years for all they care Well, sure, getting a customer's money up front for something intangible that they may never use and whose cost to you trends towards zero anyway is something they're happy to sell you. :)
mptest 3y ago
>By making it feel a finite resource, some percentage of the users will start to ration their use of your service and/or do some deliberation before using it Exactly to a T how I feel about Khanmigo. I pay for it because I love the idea of a maths tutor in my pocket that wont make me feel stupid, even if by accident, for forgetting something simple. But there's a "battery" that resets every day and it just makes me anxious. I'd easily pay 50-100$/m instead of 10/m I already pay if I could get unlimited access but there's just no option for that. If anyone has any recommendations for something like Khanmigo with unlimited access please please let me know. I'd pay so much for a good personal private tutor in my pocket. For maths if that helps.
ajdude 3y ago
This is exactly what I did and I am so happy they switched to unlimited. I have historically done things like using my search as a calculator or searching for websites are commonly visit instead of using them as a bookmark. When I would forget to add g! at the end, I feel a pang of anxiety because I knew that I just wasted another one of my kagai searches.

arp242 3y ago

Yeah, exactly. I looked at Kagi last week (first time I had heard of it), when the $10/month plan was "only" 1,000 searches a month and "unlimited" was $25. While I think that I'll probably stay well within 1,000 searches, I'm also not sure, and it's just not something I want to have to worry about (it's ~33/day on average and I doubt I'll ever hit it, but still...) One of the reasons I decided to skip Kagi for now.

bachmeier 3y ago
> it's ~33/day on average and I doubt I'll ever hit it That's a bit misleading. If the search engine really is that good, you should use it more, and then all of a sudden you'll hit the cap. I probably don't search that much now but that's because it's not worth the trouble.
- prepend 3y ago
  I just don’t search that much. And I don’t want to think about how much I search. Comically, the biggest problem I have with signing up since $10 isn’t that much is that I don’t want to have to log into kagi to prove my account. I search on my phone, work computers, random terminals, etc etc. Having to userid and password to all these places disrupts my current UX of 1) open browser, 2) type search (maybe go to ddg.com first). Changing to 1) open browser, 2) log into kagi, 3) search increases my time by 100x I usually use the same browser, but I use incognito or fresh browsers at least once or twice a day.
  - CalebJohn 3y ago
    They have a solution for that, a session link. They pass a token through a query parameter that validates to your account. You set that as the default search engine for each browser, no need to repeatedly sign in. https://kagi.com/search?token=<some-token> https://kagi.com/search?token=<some-token>
- Semaphor 3y ago
  > If the search engine really is that good, you should use it more, and then all of a sudden you'll hit the cap. FWIW, I searched less with Kagi, mostly because I needed fewer tries ;)
- freediver 3y ago
  > If the search engine really is that good, you should use it more In practice the opposite happens. Because Kagi is presumeably so good, people use it less, because they find stuff faster. Something that would require 2-3 searches on Google is just one search on Kagi. Anecdotal evidence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37008132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37008132
jlund-molfese 3y ago
Wouldn't today's change make you reconsider, because you now no longer have to worry about how much you search for $10/month, it's just unlimited?
- eep_social 3y ago
  I am not the gp but yes. I had the same concern last time I evaluated Kagi and now I expect to become a paying customer this weekend when I have some time to do all my reading and reconfigure my main devices.
  - hnben 3y ago
    > I am not the gp what is GP? (sorry, I am new to hackernews and don't yet know all the acronyms)
    - comprev 3y ago
      “grand parent” - it’s a way to reference the comment as opposed to user in a thread. “OP” aka “Original Poster” is usually the first in a thread. “PSA” aka “Please See Attached” references a link or attachment to the original post, and is used in the title of the first post, i.e, please look at this webpage I’ve linked to and let’s discuss it. “TFA” aka “The Featured Article” is often used in the discussions and is the same object as the original poster referenced via PSA
    - eep_social 3y ago
      Welcome! And thanks to comprev who has laid it all out above.
- arp242 3y ago
  Yes, I'll probably check it out and at least consider paying for it, depending on how much I like it (well, once I have a job and some disposable income...) $25/month seemed too much regardless; I don't know the economics behind it but that it's now adjusted to $10/month seems I was right.
- 3y ago
carlosjobim 3y ago
Well you should worry! I've heard that when people pass their search limit, the Kagi team shows up with big pick-up trucks to their front yard and start screaming insults, waking neighbours. But seriously, I've seen this comment so many times now, that I'm curious: What is it that you worry about exactly?
- dbrueck 3y ago
  I didn't post that comment, but I'd suggest it's not necessarily a rational worry at all. It's just human nature that if you tell somebody that something can run out, then some part of their brain will worry about it running out. :)
lostlogin 3y ago
You can set notifications and hard limits. I had this reservation and 6 weeks in have gone to the $10 plan and have other family members liking not, so will likely upsize again.

prepend 3y ago

I get that it’s hard, but figure it out. Amazon doesn’t make me subscribe and I can buy 100 hours and use them over 10 years for all they care. I’ve had monthly bills that are a penny from glacier. I don’t think this pricing is because it’s hard on Kagi. I think it’s a dark pattern that once people subscribe they just autopay forever. My dad subscribed to dial up aol until last year. He hasn’t had a phone line for 15 years. You think kagi is going to not charge people if they do zero searches? They’ve already made it a finite resource by charging $5/month for 300 searches. I’m already rationing. They’re just saying it’s $5 if you do 1 or 300. There’s already friction. But friction to dark pattern you into paying more. I mean it’s their prerogative and they can charge whatever they want. I just don’t want another monthly fee. I’d rather just pay once and be done. Sell search tokens or something.

dbrueck 3y ago
Oh, I'm not defending their approach per se - I don't want another subscription at that price point either - I'm just saying that it's not as simple as it appears on the surface because the alternate approach has a direct impact on the behavior of a good chunk of the user base, in a way that's not really good for the business or the users. I'd argue that in many cases - including this one - the issue with subscriptions is simply that they are overpriced from the customer's perspective. Reasons for this could be greed, a desire to get to a self-sufficient revenue point too early, worrying about the handful of users that will abuse any sort of unlimited plan. From the customer's perspective, if the cost-vs-benefits don't feel right, then they'll complain about a subscription, but it's not /really/ the main problem in most cases. The most "fair" plan for e.g. Netflix would be if I paid for each thing I watch, but that is effectively a "tax" on usage and negatively affects my usage patterns (from both my perspective and theirs). For example, I'd be super hesitant to browse and try out stuff I might not like. On the flip side, Netflix has now passed 15USD/mo and while it's not a huge chunk of change, I don't feel like I get 15 dollars of value out of it, so I'm thinking of cancelling. If the subscription was an absurdly low 1USD/mo, I wouldn't care about the subscription at all. Kagi's situation is unfortunate for them because they are trying to get people to pay for something that we normally think of as free, so they probably need to lower the price point, at least for now. > Amazon doesn’t make me subscribe and I can buy 100 hours and use them over 10 years for all they care Well, sure, getting a customer's money up front for something intangible that they may never use and whose cost to you trends towards zero anyway is something they're happy to sell you. :)

mptest 3y ago

>By making it feel a finite resource, some percentage of the users will start to ration their use of your service and/or do some deliberation before using it Exactly to a T how I feel about Khanmigo. I pay for it because I love the idea of a maths tutor in my pocket that wont make me feel stupid, even if by accident, for forgetting something simple. But there's a "battery" that resets every day and it just makes me anxious. I'd easily pay 50-100$/m instead of 10/m I already pay if I could get unlimited access but there's just no option for that. If anyone has any recommendations for something like Khanmigo with unlimited access please please let me know. I'd pay so much for a good personal private tutor in my pocket. For maths if that helps.

ajdude 3y ago

This is exactly what I did and I am so happy they switched to unlimited. I have historically done things like using my search as a calculator or searching for websites are commonly visit instead of using them as a bookmark. When I would forget to add g! at the end, I feel a pang of anxiety because I knew that I just wasted another one of my kagai searches.