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It's gonna be hilarious when all the new EV buyers find out about the broken chargers and start fighting over the few that work (chargers are backed up against

It's gonna be hilarious when all the new EV buyers find out about the broken chargers and start fighting over the few that work (chargers are backed up against a wall so "waiting in line" doesn't work). My prediction is we'll see massive drops in car trips due to range anxiety. Will be interesting to see the second and third order effects. Maybe public transit will make a comeback, and automakers will stay afloat with more government handouts trying to juice an EV revolution. Cities are gonna be littered with aging cars in a few years since there are virtually no chargers in cities with street parking. Conversely, no mechanics in the country know how to work on EVs. EVs only work in the suburbs.

_ea1k 3y ago
At least in the US, those are almost exclusively problems for people who didn't buy a Tesla. Given the proliferation of NACS support, that will soon change to being a problem for noone. Europe is completely different, but I get the feeling the charging infrastructure isn't so bad throughout most of Europe.
theyinwhy 3y ago
"Cities" is quite a broad category for your claims.
- throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  It is indeed. Cities are extremely diverse. But the majority of persons in the USA live in metro areas, and there is no simple method of providing power or billing for vehicle charging in all those locations. If it's an extension cord run out a window, that's quickly going to become a zoning issue. Actual physical chargers are not only more expensive to install, but fail often. I'm not even addressing the lack of generation and distribution capacity, because that's even more complex.
nicoburns 3y ago
> there are virtually no chargers in cities with street parking I suspect this will be relatively easy to build out. They installed them in my neighbourhood over a few weeks. There is already electricity supply to residential streets, so all that's required is installing chargers. Which can be quite simple if they're not fast chargers. I've also seen people simply running extension cables out of their houses. Which isn't ideal, but it works.
- asdff 3y ago
  This depends strongly on the quality of the infrastructure that's already in place on your block.
  - redserk 3y ago
    I'd be concerned if a neighborhood block's electrical infrastructure is fragile enough where even 12kW shared across multiple chargers poses a hazard. I don't like how these concerns only get raised about EVs and are seldom raised over appliances that utilize far greater power over longer periods of time like individual air conditioning units
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      > I'd be concerned if a neighborhood block's electrical infrastructure is fragile enough where even 12kW shared across multiple chargers poses a hazard. The US power grid is run down to the point it's a regular contributor in wildfires. People make memes about how bad the situation is. There are numerous YouTube videos detailing just how old a lot of the equipment and lines are. Besides, the problem is the continuous load. An air conditioner doesn't run the pump continuously for hours, while a charging post constantly consumes peak load. > I don't like how these concerns only get raised about EVs and are seldom raised over appliances that utilize far greater power over longer periods of time like individual air conditioning units FWIW yes people are talking about air conditioning, and it's already a massive hassle for grid operators to balance loads when it's extremely hot as a result. No matter what, electrical grids - and not just in the US - need a serious overhaul over the next few decades. Other than being generally old and poorly maintained, electric vehicles are just one issue... decentralized power generation, distributed battery storage, more demand for heat pumps (particularly in winter) and AC (in summer), the existing grid can't handle all that.
      - rini17 3y ago
        So you should welcome EV owners dragging the utilities into 21st century, no? Who else can do it?
PeterisP 3y ago
For an EV car, the vast majority of work needed has no relation to the drivetrain (which is relatively low-maintenance on an EV), so it doesn't really matter if half of mechanics don't know how to work on EVs; fixing suspension or doing bodywork doesn't change.
- asdff 3y ago
  I think the big oof repair with used EV is the inevitable battery replacement. That can't be cheap, especially for a used car.
  - slondr 3y ago
    “inevitable”? hardly. how many first-year Leafs are out there on the original battery? a lot, i’d reckon most. how many dead Leafs are out there which were totalled because of needing a new battery? certainly less than those which were totalled due to rust, collision, etc., ie the things that kill gas cars too.
    - asdff 3y ago
      Not sure about leafs, but with teslas the batteries are only warrantied for 8 years and 150k miles. If you live somewhere with winters it probably diminishes a lot faster. With a gas car there are things you have to do around this mileage too e.g. timing belt and water pump but thats a fix thats an order of magnitude cheaper than an ev battery replacement.
      - doctor_eval 3y ago
        Well if EV battery prices continue to decline at a similar rate - and there’s no reason not to expect this - then in 8-10 years the cost of the batteries is going to be about ¼ of today’s cost. So it doesn’t really seem like it will be such a burden.
        PeterisP 3y ago
verisimi 3y ago
> EVs only work in the suburbs. Exactly. As long as you don't drive, and have lots of disposable income, EVs are great.
- doctor_eval 3y ago
  It’s funny how waiting times and availability of charging infrastructure are often give as a reason EVs will somehow fail, yet in the regional Australian town where I live, the constant long lines and very high cost for fuel at our very small local fuel station were a driver for me to get an EV. It’s far easier to build an EV charging station than a fuel station, they can be installed just about anywhere, and they are only going to get faster and better with time. I drive a lot, and don’t have much disposable income at the moment, and EVs are great.
  - ulfw 3y ago
    Also an EV charging station only needs regular maintenance when things (sadly inevitably) break. Whereas a fuel station needs not just maintenance but also constant refueling, so trucks need to come out, which can be a looooong drive depending on how rural the station is.
lovich 3y ago
> Conversely, no mechanics in the country know how to work on EVs. EVs only work in the suburbs. I’m so glad you said this. No one understands how big an issue this is. They only have to look at historical examples like how motor vehicles failed to establish as a market because no carriage workers knew how to work on engines
- babypuncher 3y ago
  And the funny thing is I bet ICE repair and maintenance skills are a lot more transferrable to BEVs than carriage -> ICE. Most shops have already been servicing hybrids for 20 years now. It really bothers me when people point to perfectly solvable problems as reasons why we can't have electric cars.
  - _hypx 3y ago
    A dead battery cell is unfixable. At best, you have a few dead cells and a mechanic can replace them. But if replacement cells can't be found, or too many cells have died, then it is a full battery pack replacement. This is going to be a big problem for old BEVs.
    - jiggawatts 3y ago
      I can’t tell if you’re trolling or not. I do hope you realise old cars often have their entire engine replaced, right? That’s also an expensive repair job, but it hasn’t stopped the adoption of ICE vehicles.
      - _hypx 3y ago
        An ICE replacement is usually just a few thousand dollars. And that's the worse case scenario. Well maintained ICE cars can last for decades. A mandatory, $10-20k battery replacement for every BEV at some point in its lifetime is a big problem.
        jiggawatts 3y ago
_hypx 3y ago
BEVs mirror the obsession with diesel cars in Europe in more than one way. It was just a partial solution with many of its own downsides. In diesel's case, the problems drove the abandonment of diesel, even though it made up more than 50% of car sales at one point. BEVs are headed in a similar direction. At some point, the need for something new, whether it's e-fuels or hydrogen or whatever, will become undeniable. We simply won't be building millions of charging stations and place them at every parking spot. If adblue is inconvenient enough to stop diesel cars, then the charging problem will be even more fatal. We must have something that refuels like a conventional car, period.
- rini17 3y ago
  The biggest problem with diesel is supposedly adblue inconvenience? Said who?
  - _hypx 3y ago
    Other people in this thread have said that.
    - rini17 3y ago
      And several times as many replied they don't understand how that's the inconvenience :)
    - mikestew 3y ago
      “Other” == one person at the top of the thread who probably also cannot handle the complexity of adding windshield fluid.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  A “charging station” is a 240V AC outlet with a few amps on it and an inexpensive digital controller for billing. Yeah it’ll cost money to build those, just like it cost money to install parking meters. People get hung up on the weirdest things.
  - 3y ago
clouddrover 3y ago
> It's gonna be hilarious when all the new EV buyers find out about the broken chargers and start fighting over the few that work No. Europe's charging infrastructure is much superior to North America's. And the EU has a plan to make it better still: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... Meanwhile, Americans are already killing each other over EV charging: https://electrek.co/2023/05/03/tesla-driver-dies-fatal-shooting-supercharger-station-argument/ https://electrek.co/2023/05/03/tesla-driver-dies-fatal-shoot... It's a cultural thing.
MiguelX413 3y ago
Why would the availability of chargers remained unchanged?
kylegordon 3y ago
This is patently horseshit. I know mechanics, they have been on EV training courses. The dealerships clearly have trained mechanics working on the EVs they've been selling for years. I live in the countryside, I see plenty of EVs. Range anxiety is only for people doing long distance 200+ mile journeys every day, as those that commute in the suburbs day to day have the common (and financial) sense to charge at home and leave every morning with a 'full tank' Judging from your prose, admittedly, I suspect you are North American and as such have a distinctly different worldview from mine.
- PeterisP 3y ago
  Obviously there is a difference whether someone's "countryside" implies that the closest city is 50 or 500 miles away.

_ea1k 3y ago

At least in the US, those are almost exclusively problems for people who didn't buy a Tesla. Given the proliferation of NACS support, that will soon change to being a problem for noone. Europe is completely different, but I get the feeling the charging infrastructure isn't so bad throughout most of Europe.

theyinwhy 3y ago

"Cities" is quite a broad category for your claims.

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
It is indeed. Cities are extremely diverse. But the majority of persons in the USA live in metro areas, and there is no simple method of providing power or billing for vehicle charging in all those locations. If it's an extension cord run out a window, that's quickly going to become a zoning issue. Actual physical chargers are not only more expensive to install, but fail often. I'm not even addressing the lack of generation and distribution capacity, because that's even more complex.

nicoburns 3y ago

> there are virtually no chargers in cities with street parking I suspect this will be relatively easy to build out. They installed them in my neighbourhood over a few weeks. There is already electricity supply to residential streets, so all that's required is installing chargers. Which can be quite simple if they're not fast chargers. I've also seen people simply running extension cables out of their houses. Which isn't ideal, but it works.

asdff 3y ago
This depends strongly on the quality of the infrastructure that's already in place on your block.
- redserk 3y ago
  I'd be concerned if a neighborhood block's electrical infrastructure is fragile enough where even 12kW shared across multiple chargers poses a hazard. I don't like how these concerns only get raised about EVs and are seldom raised over appliances that utilize far greater power over longer periods of time like individual air conditioning units
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > I'd be concerned if a neighborhood block's electrical infrastructure is fragile enough where even 12kW shared across multiple chargers poses a hazard. The US power grid is run down to the point it's a regular contributor in wildfires. People make memes about how bad the situation is. There are numerous YouTube videos detailing just how old a lot of the equipment and lines are. Besides, the problem is the continuous load. An air conditioner doesn't run the pump continuously for hours, while a charging post constantly consumes peak load. > I don't like how these concerns only get raised about EVs and are seldom raised over appliances that utilize far greater power over longer periods of time like individual air conditioning units FWIW yes people are talking about air conditioning, and it's already a massive hassle for grid operators to balance loads when it's extremely hot as a result. No matter what, electrical grids - and not just in the US - need a serious overhaul over the next few decades. Other than being generally old and poorly maintained, electric vehicles are just one issue... decentralized power generation, distributed battery storage, more demand for heat pumps (particularly in winter) and AC (in summer), the existing grid can't handle all that.
    - rini17 3y ago
      So you should welcome EV owners dragging the utilities into 21st century, no? Who else can do it?

PeterisP 3y ago

For an EV car, the vast majority of work needed has no relation to the drivetrain (which is relatively low-maintenance on an EV), so it doesn't really matter if half of mechanics don't know how to work on EVs; fixing suspension or doing bodywork doesn't change.

asdff 3y ago
I think the big oof repair with used EV is the inevitable battery replacement. That can't be cheap, especially for a used car.
- slondr 3y ago
  “inevitable”? hardly. how many first-year Leafs are out there on the original battery? a lot, i’d reckon most. how many dead Leafs are out there which were totalled because of needing a new battery? certainly less than those which were totalled due to rust, collision, etc., ie the things that kill gas cars too.
  - asdff 3y ago
    Not sure about leafs, but with teslas the batteries are only warrantied for 8 years and 150k miles. If you live somewhere with winters it probably diminishes a lot faster. With a gas car there are things you have to do around this mileage too e.g. timing belt and water pump but thats a fix thats an order of magnitude cheaper than an ev battery replacement.
    - doctor_eval 3y ago
      Well if EV battery prices continue to decline at a similar rate - and there’s no reason not to expect this - then in 8-10 years the cost of the batteries is going to be about ¼ of today’s cost. So it doesn’t really seem like it will be such a burden.
      - PeterisP 3y ago

verisimi 3y ago

> EVs only work in the suburbs. Exactly. As long as you don't drive, and have lots of disposable income, EVs are great.

doctor_eval 3y ago
It’s funny how waiting times and availability of charging infrastructure are often give as a reason EVs will somehow fail, yet in the regional Australian town where I live, the constant long lines and very high cost for fuel at our very small local fuel station were a driver for me to get an EV. It’s far easier to build an EV charging station than a fuel station, they can be installed just about anywhere, and they are only going to get faster and better with time. I drive a lot, and don’t have much disposable income at the moment, and EVs are great.
- ulfw 3y ago
  Also an EV charging station only needs regular maintenance when things (sadly inevitably) break. Whereas a fuel station needs not just maintenance but also constant refueling, so trucks need to come out, which can be a looooong drive depending on how rural the station is.

lovich 3y ago

> Conversely, no mechanics in the country know how to work on EVs. EVs only work in the suburbs. I’m so glad you said this. No one understands how big an issue this is. They only have to look at historical examples like how motor vehicles failed to establish as a market because no carriage workers knew how to work on engines

babypuncher 3y ago
And the funny thing is I bet ICE repair and maintenance skills are a lot more transferrable to BEVs than carriage -> ICE. Most shops have already been servicing hybrids for 20 years now. It really bothers me when people point to perfectly solvable problems as reasons why we can't have electric cars.
- _hypx 3y ago
  A dead battery cell is unfixable. At best, you have a few dead cells and a mechanic can replace them. But if replacement cells can't be found, or too many cells have died, then it is a full battery pack replacement. This is going to be a big problem for old BEVs.
  - jiggawatts 3y ago
    I can’t tell if you’re trolling or not. I do hope you realise old cars often have their entire engine replaced, right? That’s also an expensive repair job, but it hasn’t stopped the adoption of ICE vehicles.
    - _hypx 3y ago
      An ICE replacement is usually just a few thousand dollars. And that's the worse case scenario. Well maintained ICE cars can last for decades. A mandatory, $10-20k battery replacement for every BEV at some point in its lifetime is a big problem.
      - jiggawatts 3y ago

_hypx 3y ago

BEVs mirror the obsession with diesel cars in Europe in more than one way. It was just a partial solution with many of its own downsides. In diesel's case, the problems drove the abandonment of diesel, even though it made up more than 50% of car sales at one point. BEVs are headed in a similar direction. At some point, the need for something new, whether it's e-fuels or hydrogen or whatever, will become undeniable. We simply won't be building millions of charging stations and place them at every parking spot. If adblue is inconvenient enough to stop diesel cars, then the charging problem will be even more fatal. We must have something that refuels like a conventional car, period.

rini17 3y ago
The biggest problem with diesel is supposedly adblue inconvenience? Said who?
- _hypx 3y ago
  Other people in this thread have said that.
  - rini17 3y ago
    And several times as many replied they don't understand how that's the inconvenience :)
  - mikestew 3y ago
    “Other” == one person at the top of the thread who probably also cannot handle the complexity of adding windshield fluid.
matthewdgreen 3y ago
A “charging station” is a 240V AC outlet with a few amps on it and an inexpensive digital controller for billing. Yeah it’ll cost money to build those, just like it cost money to install parking meters. People get hung up on the weirdest things.
- 3y ago

clouddrover 3y ago

> It's gonna be hilarious when all the new EV buyers find out about the broken chargers and start fighting over the few that work No. Europe's charging infrastructure is much superior to North America's. And the EU has a plan to make it better still: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... Meanwhile, Americans are already killing each other over EV charging: https://electrek.co/2023/05/03/tesla-driver-dies-fatal-shooting-supercharger-station-argument/ https://electrek.co/2023/05/03/tesla-driver-dies-fatal-shoot... It's a cultural thing.

MiguelX413 3y ago

Why would the availability of chargers remained unchanged?

kylegordon 3y ago

This is patently horseshit. I know mechanics, they have been on EV training courses. The dealerships clearly have trained mechanics working on the EVs they've been selling for years. I live in the countryside, I see plenty of EVs. Range anxiety is only for people doing long distance 200+ mile journeys every day, as those that commute in the suburbs day to day have the common (and financial) sense to charge at home and leave every morning with a 'full tank' Judging from your prose, admittedly, I suspect you are North American and as such have a distinctly different worldview from mine.

PeterisP 3y ago
Obviously there is a difference whether someone's "countryside" implies that the closest city is 50 or 500 miles away.