7 ms·

What point are you trying to make?

gauku 3y ago
I think the point they are trying to make is pretty clear - Canada, be it due to systemic incompetence or vested political interests, shares a lot of the blame.
belltaco 3y ago
Your earlier comment made it sound it like it was a fair trial for the 329 victims(including 82 children) on board the Air India flight and their families. Did the presumably new information change your mind? Or do you still think it was a standard part of a liberal democracy? Here's the then Canadian PM's apology after 25 years. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/stephen-harpers-apology-to-air-india-victims-families https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/stephen-harpers-apology...
- maximilianburke 3y ago
  It's not new information; I've lived in Vancouver my whole life, I know well the history of the Air India disaster and all the drama surrounding the investigation and the trial. Fair trials are indeed a cornerstone of liberal democracy, with fairness being an attribute given to those accused of a crime, not necessarily the unfortunate victims. The accused tends to get the benefit of the doubt because of the cost of the loss of freedoms that hinge on a guilty verdict. CSIS fucked up. The RCMP fucked up. But there is a standard to which prosecutions are held and the government didn't meet it. And none of this excuses _gunning down a person sitting in their car_ which, in case you forgot, was the original topic of this discussion. It doesn't matter who they associated with, what they were involved with, or what they did.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - belltaco 3y ago
    >And none of this excuses _gunning down a person sitting in their car_ which, in case you forgot, was the original topic of this discussion. It doesn't matter who they associated with, what they were involved with, or what they did True, the Indian government fucked up.
  - refurb 3y ago
    You seem to be doing your best to dance around the point belltaco is making. There is evidence that CSIS destroyed evidence that led to the acquital of the defendants. And your response is "CSIS fucked up. The RCMP fucked up." Nothing to see here!
    - maximilianburke 3y ago
      I'm not dancing around it, I just don't think belltaco's point is relevant to the current situation.
  - raincom 3y ago
    CSIS actively sabotaged the investigation, it appears. [1] https://espionage.substack.com/p/canadian-intelligences-dirty-little-secret https://espionage.substack.com/p/canadian-intelligences-dirt... [2] https://espionage.substack.com/p/how-canadian-intelligence-allowed https://espionage.substack.com/p/how-canadian-intelligence-a...
- michael1999 3y ago
  For better or worse, the victims of a crime are not parties to a criminal trial in common law. The idea of a "fair trial" is solely between the crown and the accused. As for liberal democracies: you'll find many examples of the spies (i.e. counter-intelligence) working at cross purposes to the criminal justice system. Think MI5 vs the Met, or the NSA vs local law enforcement. The spooks are often much more interested in protecting sources and methods than they are in criminal prosecutions. That's partly why the USA has gotten so good at parallel construction.

I think the point they are trying to make is pretty clear - Canada, be it due to systemic incompetence or vested political interests, shares a lot of the blame.

belltaco 3y ago

Your earlier comment made it sound it like it was a fair trial for the 329 victims(including 82 children) on board the Air India flight and their families. Did the presumably new information change your mind? Or do you still think it was a standard part of a liberal democracy? Here's the then Canadian PM's apology after 25 years. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/stephen-harpers-apology-to-air-india-victims-families https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/stephen-harpers-apology...

maximilianburke 3y ago
It's not new information; I've lived in Vancouver my whole life, I know well the history of the Air India disaster and all the drama surrounding the investigation and the trial. Fair trials are indeed a cornerstone of liberal democracy, with fairness being an attribute given to those accused of a crime, not necessarily the unfortunate victims. The accused tends to get the benefit of the doubt because of the cost of the loss of freedoms that hinge on a guilty verdict. CSIS fucked up. The RCMP fucked up. But there is a standard to which prosecutions are held and the government didn't meet it. And none of this excuses _gunning down a person sitting in their car_ which, in case you forgot, was the original topic of this discussion. It doesn't matter who they associated with, what they were involved with, or what they did.
- belltaco 3y ago
  [flagged]
- belltaco 3y ago
  >And none of this excuses _gunning down a person sitting in their car_ which, in case you forgot, was the original topic of this discussion. It doesn't matter who they associated with, what they were involved with, or what they did True, the Indian government fucked up.
- refurb 3y ago
  You seem to be doing your best to dance around the point belltaco is making. There is evidence that CSIS destroyed evidence that led to the acquital of the defendants. And your response is "CSIS fucked up. The RCMP fucked up." Nothing to see here!
  - maximilianburke 3y ago
    I'm not dancing around it, I just don't think belltaco's point is relevant to the current situation.
- raincom 3y ago
  CSIS actively sabotaged the investigation, it appears. [1] https://espionage.substack.com/p/canadian-intelligences-dirty-little-secret https://espionage.substack.com/p/canadian-intelligences-dirt... [2] https://espionage.substack.com/p/how-canadian-intelligence-allowed https://espionage.substack.com/p/how-canadian-intelligence-a...
michael1999 3y ago
For better or worse, the victims of a crime are not parties to a criminal trial in common law. The idea of a "fair trial" is solely between the crown and the accused. As for liberal democracies: you'll find many examples of the spies (i.e. counter-intelligence) working at cross purposes to the criminal justice system. Think MI5 vs the Met, or the NSA vs local law enforcement. The spooks are often much more interested in protecting sources and methods than they are in criminal prosecutions. That's partly why the USA has gotten so good at parallel construction.