6 ms·

Why are there so many loopholes in every single US law? Everytime there’s a major health issue or anything extremely anti consumer it’s because of a loophole i

by thiht 3y ago

Why are there so many loopholes in every single US law? Everytime there’s a major health issue or anything extremely anti consumer it’s because of a loophole in the formulation of a US law. Are US lawmakers that bad? Or is it judges who interpret laws literally instead of using the intent?

gmkabro 3y ago
It’s money. The answer is money. Somebody makes money by producing lead-infused products, so they pay off lawmakers to add a loophole that allows them to continue making money.
- tlrobinson 3y ago
  Bill Gurley’s recent talk is worth a watch https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM
  - hodgesrm 3y ago
    That's an excellent talk. Thanks for posting.
- sneak 3y ago
  Yet people still maintain the popular fiction that corruption isn't that common in the large western countries, and that it's somehow more prevalent in the east. It's nonsense. Everywhere there are large governments, there is huge corruption that is literally killing people so that others may be enriched without working as much.
  - forgetm3 3y ago
    Corruption exists everywhere, but in western countries is a lot less likely that you'll be bribing police, school teachers, medical services, banks etc as an 'individual' to get the services you expect from them. Can you find examples of people bribing those in those positions? Sure, it can and does happen. And on the whole, it's the exception rather than the rule. And definitely not at the scale of other countries. Big business interests affecting policy for the point of profit is a universal issue though.
  - lacrimacida 3y ago
    A small government wouldn’t magically solve this problem though
    - Clubber 3y ago
      >A small government wouldn’t magically solve this problem though You'd have a lot fewer corrupt officials though.
  - ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
    Well there are so many social issues that suck the oxygen out
ip26 3y ago
There are often fairly sensible reasons or good intent behind many of them. People don't normally drink hot water; it's not a great idea, as it has higher levels of dissolved solids and higher risk of contamination by organisms (like legionnaires). Meanwhile, lead helps make metals and solders more resilient to high temperatures and fatigue at low cost. Banning lead from the hot side could therefore decrease reliability and increase cost, for arguably little to no health benefit. I don't have a vested interest in the lead industry, but it's pretty clearly not simple maleficence.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  Basically nothing you said here is true. People don't normally drink hot water People drink hot water all the time not to mention cooking, tea, instant coffee and more. legionnaires That's from water being stagnant for long periods of time. lead helps make metals and solders more resilient to high temperatures Not only is this not true, but water is never going to go above boiling. Propane torches (used for soldering pipes) burns at 1,980C Banning lead from the hot side could therefore decrease reliability This is ridiculous. Soldered pipes have been in use for over 70 years. Where are getting this idea?
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    > People drink hot water all the time not to mention cooking, tea, instant coffee and more. I always use cold water and then boil it in a kettle. Even in Europe with our copper pipes the heat will dissolve more crap apparently. It's always advised to do this. > That's from water being stagnant for long periods of time. Yeah stagnant under optimal bacterial growth temperatures like 30C. And it enters the body through the lungs, from vapors in the shower. Not drinking it doesn't prevent legionnaire disease. In fact what does prevent it is heating the water significantly, like around 60C. And chlorinating. It's also why the water here in Spain it's almost undrinkable from all the chlorine here in summer. They just have to put that much in it to prevent outdoor pipes growing bacteria. Yet in summer the water is still hot and brown when I open the tap after it's been outside in the pipe all day. I drink a lot of bottled water, lol. > Not only is this not true, but water is never going to go above boiling. Propane torches (used for soldering pipes) burns at 1,980C Yeah lead solder actually melts at a much lower temperature. I still use it for that reason because lead free is a bitch to work with. I only solder micro electronics though.
jstarfish 3y ago
People shit on California's Proposition 65, but the notices at Fry's made me aware of the lead content of solder, and the ones at Michael's highlighted the lead in Christmas decorations, lights, and fake trees/garland. I went most of my life ignorant of all of this. But banning stuff outright seems like it would be counterproductive to either industry (banning soldering would be disruptive) or public image ("Liberals declare war on Christmas!"). (Tangential mention of McDonald's, whose warnings highlighted the acrylamide released in the potato-frying process.)
- XorNot 3y ago
  Lead-free solder exists though. It works fine - particularly for plumbing where you don't have tin-whisker concerns. The only problem I've ever had with it is (1) that it turns out Bunnings in Australia sells utterly atrocious flux (the good stuff is also non-toxic, potable compatible and made in USA - and it works perfectly) and (2) that people aren't aware enough of the problem (i.e. my parents house has lead solder all through the plumbing where my father didn't know there was a difference and extended it). EDIT: For any Australians out there - this one - https://www.totaltools.com.au/154135-la-co-56g-soldering-flux-paste-1711882 https://www.totaltools.com.au/154135-la-co-56g-soldering-flu... - buy this one. This is the one which works.
- boppo1 3y ago
  Artist here. The UK had/has a ban on all lead white paint. Real bummer. Ti white works in a pinch, but it has dramatically different properties.
kube-system 3y ago
If you write laws without an exceptions for exceptional cases, then you get more laws with unintended consequences.
ekianjo 3y ago
> Why are there so many loopholes in every single US law Bribery of politicians
deciplex 3y ago
Us lawmakers are effectively the employees of the people profiting from skirting these health issues.
chmod600 3y ago
It's much easier and faster to pass a law with loopholes that still removes 90%+ of the bad stuff you want to remove. If you try to solve 100% of the problem you have the bad stuff on the market for another 10 years while the details are sorted out. Or you just ignore the details and ram through the bill, and find out about a lot of unintended consequences and have a mess. Ideally, politicians would pass the bill with loopholes first, and then follow up and try to close them to finish solving the problem. But that's one of those things like refactoring and code cleanup that you always mean to do and never get around to.
rendall 3y ago
> Or is it judges who interpret laws literally instead of using the intent? It's hard to interpret intent in a way that is consistent and fair. A ruling that does not go by what is written down is open to be criticized, while a ruling that adheres to the letter is almost never overturned.
epivosism 3y ago
Why can antelope still run faster than most cheetahs? What I mean is that you only see what survives. The thousands of products which used to have lead which don't anymore are gone, out of sight out of mind. The ones which someone forgot, or someone bribed a politician to preserve, or even ones which were created specifically afterwards and which the law had no way to even know about, to ban, are what you see. Dynamic systems have this property, and it's hard to get permanent dominance since both sides keep adjusting.

by thiht 3y ago

gmkabro 3y ago

It’s money. The answer is money. Somebody makes money by producing lead-infused products, so they pay off lawmakers to add a loophole that allows them to continue making money.

tlrobinson 3y ago
Bill Gurley’s recent talk is worth a watch https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM
- hodgesrm 3y ago
  That's an excellent talk. Thanks for posting.
sneak 3y ago
Yet people still maintain the popular fiction that corruption isn't that common in the large western countries, and that it's somehow more prevalent in the east. It's nonsense. Everywhere there are large governments, there is huge corruption that is literally killing people so that others may be enriched without working as much.
- forgetm3 3y ago
  Corruption exists everywhere, but in western countries is a lot less likely that you'll be bribing police, school teachers, medical services, banks etc as an 'individual' to get the services you expect from them. Can you find examples of people bribing those in those positions? Sure, it can and does happen. And on the whole, it's the exception rather than the rule. And definitely not at the scale of other countries. Big business interests affecting policy for the point of profit is a universal issue though.
- lacrimacida 3y ago
  A small government wouldn’t magically solve this problem though
  - Clubber 3y ago
    >A small government wouldn’t magically solve this problem though You'd have a lot fewer corrupt officials though.
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
  Well there are so many social issues that suck the oxygen out

ip26 3y ago

There are often fairly sensible reasons or good intent behind many of them. People don't normally drink hot water; it's not a great idea, as it has higher levels of dissolved solids and higher risk of contamination by organisms (like legionnaires). Meanwhile, lead helps make metals and solders more resilient to high temperatures and fatigue at low cost. Banning lead from the hot side could therefore decrease reliability and increase cost, for arguably little to no health benefit. I don't have a vested interest in the lead industry, but it's pretty clearly not simple maleficence.

CyberDildonics 3y ago
Basically nothing you said here is true. People don't normally drink hot water People drink hot water all the time not to mention cooking, tea, instant coffee and more. legionnaires That's from water being stagnant for long periods of time. lead helps make metals and solders more resilient to high temperatures Not only is this not true, but water is never going to go above boiling. Propane torches (used for soldering pipes) burns at 1,980C Banning lead from the hot side could therefore decrease reliability This is ridiculous. Soldered pipes have been in use for over 70 years. Where are getting this idea?
- wkat4242 3y ago
  > People drink hot water all the time not to mention cooking, tea, instant coffee and more. I always use cold water and then boil it in a kettle. Even in Europe with our copper pipes the heat will dissolve more crap apparently. It's always advised to do this. > That's from water being stagnant for long periods of time. Yeah stagnant under optimal bacterial growth temperatures like 30C. And it enters the body through the lungs, from vapors in the shower. Not drinking it doesn't prevent legionnaire disease. In fact what does prevent it is heating the water significantly, like around 60C. And chlorinating. It's also why the water here in Spain it's almost undrinkable from all the chlorine here in summer. They just have to put that much in it to prevent outdoor pipes growing bacteria. Yet in summer the water is still hot and brown when I open the tap after it's been outside in the pipe all day. I drink a lot of bottled water, lol. > Not only is this not true, but water is never going to go above boiling. Propane torches (used for soldering pipes) burns at 1,980C Yeah lead solder actually melts at a much lower temperature. I still use it for that reason because lead free is a bitch to work with. I only solder micro electronics though.

jstarfish 3y ago

People shit on California's Proposition 65, but the notices at Fry's made me aware of the lead content of solder, and the ones at Michael's highlighted the lead in Christmas decorations, lights, and fake trees/garland. I went most of my life ignorant of all of this. But banning stuff outright seems like it would be counterproductive to either industry (banning soldering would be disruptive) or public image ("Liberals declare war on Christmas!"). (Tangential mention of McDonald's, whose warnings highlighted the acrylamide released in the potato-frying process.)

XorNot 3y ago
Lead-free solder exists though. It works fine - particularly for plumbing where you don't have tin-whisker concerns. The only problem I've ever had with it is (1) that it turns out Bunnings in Australia sells utterly atrocious flux (the good stuff is also non-toxic, potable compatible and made in USA - and it works perfectly) and (2) that people aren't aware enough of the problem (i.e. my parents house has lead solder all through the plumbing where my father didn't know there was a difference and extended it). EDIT: For any Australians out there - this one - https://www.totaltools.com.au/154135-la-co-56g-soldering-flux-paste-1711882 https://www.totaltools.com.au/154135-la-co-56g-soldering-flu... - buy this one. This is the one which works.
boppo1 3y ago
Artist here. The UK had/has a ban on all lead white paint. Real bummer. Ti white works in a pinch, but it has dramatically different properties.

kube-system 3y ago

If you write laws without an exceptions for exceptional cases, then you get more laws with unintended consequences.

ekianjo 3y ago

> Why are there so many loopholes in every single US law Bribery of politicians

deciplex 3y ago

Us lawmakers are effectively the employees of the people profiting from skirting these health issues.

chmod600 3y ago

It's much easier and faster to pass a law with loopholes that still removes 90%+ of the bad stuff you want to remove. If you try to solve 100% of the problem you have the bad stuff on the market for another 10 years while the details are sorted out. Or you just ignore the details and ram through the bill, and find out about a lot of unintended consequences and have a mess. Ideally, politicians would pass the bill with loopholes first, and then follow up and try to close them to finish solving the problem. But that's one of those things like refactoring and code cleanup that you always mean to do and never get around to.

rendall 3y ago

> Or is it judges who interpret laws literally instead of using the intent? It's hard to interpret intent in a way that is consistent and fair. A ruling that does not go by what is written down is open to be criticized, while a ruling that adheres to the letter is almost never overturned.

epivosism 3y ago

Why can antelope still run faster than most cheetahs? What I mean is that you only see what survives. The thousands of products which used to have lead which don't anymore are gone, out of sight out of mind. The ones which someone forgot, or someone bribed a politician to preserve, or even ones which were created specifically afterwards and which the law had no way to even know about, to ban, are what you see. Dynamic systems have this property, and it's hard to get permanent dominance since both sides keep adjusting.