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I think it's quite likely that, if people had died, the press would have covered it (as they have so salaciously covered the accidents). I have no reason to be

I think it's quite likely that, if people had died, the press would have covered it (as they have so salaciously covered the accidents). I have no reason to believe Tesla is lying. But, before we barrel down that path, why don't you tell all of us what level of death would be acceptable to you. Would you be willing to endorse FSD if it were, on average, as safe, or more safe, than human drivers?

Veserv 3y ago
If any autonomous driving system could demonstrate safety at or above human drivers supported by a robust dataset generated from a rigorous investigative process and made available to credible unbiased third party watchdogs or regulatory agencies that confirm the findings then I would support the further testing and deployment of such a system. Now your turn, how many people has Tesla ADAS software killed and what is the acceptable rate? As to the data reporting I demand, which is longstanding standard in safety-critical system deployments, Tesla is literally the furthest from that. They deny all third party access, voluntarily publish no raw data, demand the maximum redaction in all mandatory government reporting, and hide data except when selectively releasing private data out of context in press conferences only when it portrays them positively and burying the rest. They choose to do no investigations so they will not be required to report negative outcomes, they sue reporters, threaten news organizations and employers with lawsuits to make them silence their employees, and direct abuse against regulators to force them to recuse themselves from investigations. Tesla uses every trick in the book to prevent a critical look at their numbers. There is exactly zero reason to believe even a completely transparent company about the safety of their own products. A company as dishonest and cagey as Tesla providing numbers with zero supporting evidence, who has a history of cherry picking misleading good-sounding data, should have their numbers resoundingly ignored.
- hcurtiss 3y ago
  Nah, I think they've produced sufficient evidence to shift the burden. Where's your evidence of all these deaths? This is safety critical in the way that all cars are safety critical. This is not an airplane, and this is not the FAA. If we're going to drag Tesla through the mud, as you seem hell-bent on doing, I think it should be on you to evidence this epidemic of Tesla deaths. You cannot because there is no such epidemic.
  - Veserv 3y ago
    You and Tesla have not provided any evidence. All you have done is point to self-reported numbers with absolutely no supporting data. You can not even tell me the number of accidents reported or the number of miles driven on Autopilot in Q4 22 used to calculate Tesla’s number. That is the numerator and the denominator, really basic stuff that even a elementary school science fair project would report. Given your total refusal to supply any data or evidence at all to support your points, do you even know anything beyond the Tesla talking points? Please reply with the number of confirmed fatalities (or fatal crashes) in the US while Tesla ADAS systems were in use (hint it is non-zero).

Veserv 3y ago

If any autonomous driving system could demonstrate safety at or above human drivers supported by a robust dataset generated from a rigorous investigative process and made available to credible unbiased third party watchdogs or regulatory agencies that confirm the findings then I would support the further testing and deployment of such a system. Now your turn, how many people has Tesla ADAS software killed and what is the acceptable rate? As to the data reporting I demand, which is longstanding standard in safety-critical system deployments, Tesla is literally the furthest from that. They deny all third party access, voluntarily publish no raw data, demand the maximum redaction in all mandatory government reporting, and hide data except when selectively releasing private data out of context in press conferences only when it portrays them positively and burying the rest. They choose to do no investigations so they will not be required to report negative outcomes, they sue reporters, threaten news organizations and employers with lawsuits to make them silence their employees, and direct abuse against regulators to force them to recuse themselves from investigations. Tesla uses every trick in the book to prevent a critical look at their numbers. There is exactly zero reason to believe even a completely transparent company about the safety of their own products. A company as dishonest and cagey as Tesla providing numbers with zero supporting evidence, who has a history of cherry picking misleading good-sounding data, should have their numbers resoundingly ignored.

hcurtiss 3y ago
Nah, I think they've produced sufficient evidence to shift the burden. Where's your evidence of all these deaths? This is safety critical in the way that all cars are safety critical. This is not an airplane, and this is not the FAA. If we're going to drag Tesla through the mud, as you seem hell-bent on doing, I think it should be on you to evidence this epidemic of Tesla deaths. You cannot because there is no such epidemic.
- Veserv 3y ago
  You and Tesla have not provided any evidence. All you have done is point to self-reported numbers with absolutely no supporting data. You can not even tell me the number of accidents reported or the number of miles driven on Autopilot in Q4 22 used to calculate Tesla’s number. That is the numerator and the denominator, really basic stuff that even a elementary school science fair project would report. Given your total refusal to supply any data or evidence at all to support your points, do you even know anything beyond the Tesla talking points? Please reply with the number of confirmed fatalities (or fatal crashes) in the US while Tesla ADAS systems were in use (hint it is non-zero).