19 ms·

That's all software.

l33t7332273 3y ago
I don’t think it is. If you pay for software it generally comes with some warranty and guarantee of fitness for purpose.
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
  >> If you pay for software it generally comes with some warranty and guarantee of fitness for purpose. Generally it does not: Microsoft Windows EULA states: "Disclaimer. Neither Microsoft, nor the device manufacturer or installer, gives any other express warranties, guarantees, or conditions. Microsoft and the device manufacturer and installer exclude all implied warranties and conditions, including those of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, and non-infringement. If your local law does not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, then any implied warranties, guarantees, or conditions last only during the term of the limited warranty and are limited as much as your local law allows. If your local law requires a longer limited warranty term, despite this agreement, then that longer term will apply, but you can recover only the remedies this agreement allows." Source: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/U... Oracle EULA states: "Disclaimer of Warranties; Limitation of Liability THE PROGRAMS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. ORACLE FURTHER DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS AND IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NONINFRINGEMENT." Source: https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/standard-license.html https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/standard-license.h...
  - inetknght 3y ago
    > Generally it does not: And that's a real damn shame, too. If only we had actual Engineering certifications for software engineers. Things would be a lot more expensive... but perhaps they'd be a lot more consumer-friendly too.
    - pgeorgi 3y ago
      > If only we had actual Engineering certifications for software engineers. See Canada: Software Engineers are called Software Developers there, problem solved.
      - mardifoufs 3y ago
        No, we have actual software engineering degrees. So there are software engineers here too.
        xmcqdpt2 3y ago
        Ton nom d'utilisateur ne me rappelle pas de souvenirs parce que j'ai tout oublié de ces mardis là
        mardifoufs 3y ago
        Hahahahaha I wish je pouvais oublier quelques mardi moi. Au moins c'était pas des jeudi :)
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      Microsoft doesn't provide any guarantee of fitness for use, and you blame that on software engineers being uncertified? Blame it on Microsoft! (Now, there might be an argument you could make that, if software engineers had actual certifications, they would have the leverage to push back against Microsoft management and say "no, we're not going to ship that". But I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work, at least not at this stage of the game. Microsoft would just find coders in India or the Philippines or somewhere to implement it where there are no such professional regulations. No, when a company the size of Microsoft does something like that, the problem is not with the individual contributors.)
    - glitchc 3y ago
      Even in places where Engineers are distinct from Developers (see Canada above), it's not common to learn code safety as a core principle for writing good software. Safety critical and real-time software principles are topics often left to upper year electives.
  - l33t7332273 3y ago
    Did you check the guarantee associated with Windows enterprise?
    - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
      >> Did you check the guarantee associated with Windows enterprise? That's a deep rabbit hole that leads to the Underdark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underdark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underdark) of Enterprise Legal Agreements. Only high-level legal wizards and magisters can go there and expect to understand anything and keep their sanity. Not a lawyer, but I expect it comes down to "if you follow our guidelines and pay us enough we can make the following guarantees, but there are certain things that we simply do not cover."
      - l33t7332273 3y ago
        >if you follow our guidelines and pay us enough we can make the following guarantees, but there are certain things that we simply do not cover This is exactly what a warranty is though.
        numbsafari 3y ago
        Has the Commerce Dept gotten any money back?
        thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
        >> This is exactly what a warranty is though. Yes, but it is not for consumers. It is for big businesses that pay millions and have specific expectations. The more you are willing to pay to more you can get within specific limits. Your original statement, "If you pay for software it generally comes with some warranty and guarantee of fitness for purpose." does not hold for consumers and only partially holds for enterprise customers. It might be better stated: "If your business / entity / government has specific needs (e.g. compliance with legal or medical regulations, industry certifications, ISO requirements, auditing, etc.), has a large sack of money to pay, and a team of lawyers, then there are some software publishers who will sign contracts to guarantee you certain qualities about the software you license with them and perhaps some level of support of that software."
  - GoblinSlayer 3y ago
    It's in the next paragraph: --- Limited Remedy. If Microsoft, or the device manufacturer or installer, breaches its limited warranty, it will, at its election, either: (i) repair or replace the software at no charge, or (ii) accept return of the software (or at its election the device on which the software was preinstalled) for a refund of the amount paid, if any. ---
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >If you pay for software it generally comes with some warranty and guarantee of fitness for purpose. Unless it's some sort of bespoke software with a detailed contract (the details of which aren't available), I don't believe that's true. Every single software license (as well as websites and other services) I've ever read (over the past 30 years or so) has had some similar disclaimer. Would you provide an example that doesn't follow that pattern?
NegativeK 3y ago
That's absolutely not all software.

I don’t think it is. If you pay for software it generally comes with some warranty and guarantee of fitness for purpose.

thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
>> If you pay for software it generally comes with some warranty and guarantee of fitness for purpose. Generally it does not: Microsoft Windows EULA states: "Disclaimer. Neither Microsoft, nor the device manufacturer or installer, gives any other express warranties, guarantees, or conditions. Microsoft and the device manufacturer and installer exclude all implied warranties and conditions, including those of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, and non-infringement. If your local law does not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, then any implied warranties, guarantees, or conditions last only during the term of the limited warranty and are limited as much as your local law allows. If your local law requires a longer limited warranty term, despite this agreement, then that longer term will apply, but you can recover only the remedies this agreement allows." Source: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/U... Oracle EULA states: "Disclaimer of Warranties; Limitation of Liability THE PROGRAMS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. ORACLE FURTHER DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS AND IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NONINFRINGEMENT." Source: https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/standard-license.html https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/standard-license.h...
- inetknght 3y ago
  > Generally it does not: And that's a real damn shame, too. If only we had actual Engineering certifications for software engineers. Things would be a lot more expensive... but perhaps they'd be a lot more consumer-friendly too.
  - pgeorgi 3y ago
    > If only we had actual Engineering certifications for software engineers. See Canada: Software Engineers are called Software Developers there, problem solved.
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      No, we have actual software engineering degrees. So there are software engineers here too.
      - xmcqdpt2 3y ago
        Ton nom d'utilisateur ne me rappelle pas de souvenirs parce que j'ai tout oublié de ces mardis là
        mardifoufs 3y ago
        Hahahahaha I wish je pouvais oublier quelques mardi moi. Au moins c'était pas des jeudi :)
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    Microsoft doesn't provide any guarantee of fitness for use, and you blame that on software engineers being uncertified? Blame it on Microsoft! (Now, there might be an argument you could make that, if software engineers had actual certifications, they would have the leverage to push back against Microsoft management and say "no, we're not going to ship that". But I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work, at least not at this stage of the game. Microsoft would just find coders in India or the Philippines or somewhere to implement it where there are no such professional regulations. No, when a company the size of Microsoft does something like that, the problem is not with the individual contributors.)
  - glitchc 3y ago
    Even in places where Engineers are distinct from Developers (see Canada above), it's not common to learn code safety as a core principle for writing good software. Safety critical and real-time software principles are topics often left to upper year electives.
- l33t7332273 3y ago
  Did you check the guarantee associated with Windows enterprise?
  - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
    >> Did you check the guarantee associated with Windows enterprise? That's a deep rabbit hole that leads to the Underdark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underdark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underdark) of Enterprise Legal Agreements. Only high-level legal wizards and magisters can go there and expect to understand anything and keep their sanity. Not a lawyer, but I expect it comes down to "if you follow our guidelines and pay us enough we can make the following guarantees, but there are certain things that we simply do not cover."
    - l33t7332273 3y ago
      >if you follow our guidelines and pay us enough we can make the following guarantees, but there are certain things that we simply do not cover This is exactly what a warranty is though.
      - numbsafari 3y ago
        Has the Commerce Dept gotten any money back?
      - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
        >> This is exactly what a warranty is though. Yes, but it is not for consumers. It is for big businesses that pay millions and have specific expectations. The more you are willing to pay to more you can get within specific limits. Your original statement, "If you pay for software it generally comes with some warranty and guarantee of fitness for purpose." does not hold for consumers and only partially holds for enterprise customers. It might be better stated: "If your business / entity / government has specific needs (e.g. compliance with legal or medical regulations, industry certifications, ISO requirements, auditing, etc.), has a large sack of money to pay, and a team of lawyers, then there are some software publishers who will sign contracts to guarantee you certain qualities about the software you license with them and perhaps some level of support of that software."
- GoblinSlayer 3y ago
  It's in the next paragraph: --- Limited Remedy. If Microsoft, or the device manufacturer or installer, breaches its limited warranty, it will, at its election, either: (i) repair or replace the software at no charge, or (ii) accept return of the software (or at its election the device on which the software was preinstalled) for a refund of the amount paid, if any. ---
nobody9999 3y ago
>If you pay for software it generally comes with some warranty and guarantee of fitness for purpose. Unless it's some sort of bespoke software with a detailed contract (the details of which aren't available), I don't believe that's true. Every single software license (as well as websites and other services) I've ever read (over the past 30 years or so) has had some similar disclaimer. Would you provide an example that doesn't follow that pattern?

NegativeK 3y ago

That's absolutely not all software.