6 ms·

Rip matrix p2p. I wonder if they were serious about it, or if it was just vaporware (a la Musk) to get more funding. It has been announced years ago, they rais

Rip matrix p2p. I wonder if they were serious about it, or if it was just vaporware (a la Musk) to get more funding. It has been announced years ago, they raised millions and they have big governments contracts. WTF is going on?

contact9879 3y ago
It's still in development[1]. Seems like p2p will depend on dendrite so until dendrite is stable, p2p will not be available. [1]: https://arewep2pyet.com/ https://arewep2pyet.com/
Arathorn 3y ago
wtf is going on is that: a) p2p matrix works pretty well as a proof of concept - you can try it from https://arewep2pyet.com https://arewep2pyet.com; it’s not remotely vapourware. b) funding has been spent on core Matrix dev and making Element kick ass (cf Element X) c) an awful lot of very large Matrix + Element deployments (eg LuxChat in Luxembourg, Merkury 2.0 in the Polish MOD, many German local authorities) decide to run Matrix deployments without routing a single $ to support development at either the Matrix Foundation or Element, such are the joys of the Apache license. As a result, we’ve had to pause some of the longer-term R&D. I very much hope that P2P will resume (especially if someone explicitly funds it) and the team is still at Element (but working on sliding sync and account portability). But right now we’re focusing exclusively on fixing the core problems in both Matrix and Element which others in this thread are complaining about. Hence Matrix 2.0, and Element X.
- brunoqc 3y ago
  Thanks Matthew, I always appreciate your comments. I also do appreciate the Apache license. Sorry for the vapourware comment. It's hard to tell these days. Was the Google self-driving car thing vapourware? It never went anywhere. I know that pinecone worked as a PoC. I ran a node for years, for fun. It's just that it always felt like the progress was crazy slow. The yggdrasil demo was what, 4 years ago? How fucked up will the world be in 4 years? Not that it's your fault. And I care about matrix. I was the one who suggested arewep2pyet.com, I made 1-2 friends use it (matrix), I made 1-2 coworkers use it. Also, zulip threads now or I riot.
  - Arathorn 3y ago
    The best way to get P2P Matrix back on track is to find someone to fund it, and point them at funding@matrix.org. Unfortunately it's as simple as that.
  - Signez 3y ago
    > Was the Google self-driving car thing vapourware? It never went anywhere. Well, it goes somewhere: people are actually being driven around Pheonix, Arizona [0] using those cars. It's just that it is not named "Google self-driving cars" any more: it was spun into its own company, Waymo [1]. [0]: https://waymo.com/waymo-one-phoenix/ https://waymo.com/waymo-one-phoenix/ [1]: https://waymo.com/ https://waymo.com/
  - mxmilkiib 3y ago
    Zulip threads are killer. Shame you can't categorise Zulip streams like you can with channels on Discord though (something that's also related to the IRC/Matrix vs. Discord conversation/content discoverability thing mentioned elsewhere here).
- beardog 3y ago
  Makes me sad that billions got poured into cryptocurrency-sphere projects but classic p2p barely scrapes by. (I mean by society not new vector)
  - jazzyjackson 3y ago
    money flows to where it can be multiplied, not where it can be sunk into some social good
  - npoc 3y ago
    You probably don't understand the enormous world-corrupting problem with fiat currencies.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  Its probably the right choice if yo don't have the funds. But it s great that that team is working on account portability. That would be useful in a p2p world anyway. Really hoping Full Matrix p2p will happen. Its would be such a cool capability. Governments wasting so much time and money on so much nonsense software but we can't support and open communication tool.
- gwd 3y ago
  Just poking around matrix.org, it's not clear exactly how one would "route [some] $[s] to support development" other than paying someone else for a hosted server. Our open-source project just switched to using Matrix from IRC; we're not really big enough to warrant hosting our own Matrix server, so most of us are just using matrix.org. We have some industry funding, and try to support other open source projects when we can; but not on the order of $250/mo (which if I'm reading it right, looks like the cheapest product on element.io -- $5/user/mo, min 50 users). If matrix.org accepts donations, it's not at all clear from your website.
  - Arathorn 3y ago
    Well, we need to fix that then. https://matrix.org/membership/ https://matrix.org/membership/ and https://matrix.org/blog/2023/06/membership-program/ https://matrix.org/blog/2023/06/membership-program/ is the way to donate.
    - gwd 3y ago
      I see now that somewhere most of the way down the front page there's a button-type link to "Support Matrix", which leads to a page which points either to membership or to a handful of ways to donate: https://matrix.org/support/ https://matrix.org/support/ I'd suggest you make sure there's a link to that page 1) somewhere in the menus 2) somewhere in the footer. I'd also make a link to the membership page from the "About" page, and a link to the "Support Matrix" page from the "Membership" page, so that people who manage to find the Membership page but aren't ready to become members can support via patreon / whatever. Thanks for all your work on Matrix! Looking forward to seeing the improvements coming down the line!
- snvzz 3y ago
  >eg LuxChat in Luxembourg, Merkury 2.0 in the Polish MOD, many German local authorities This is extremely sad. They're large tax-funded organizations and should definitely contribute to priorize the needs they definitely have. Ironically, there might be voices pushing for a move to a proprietary solution they would actually have to pay to use, and have much less control over.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ezst 3y ago
Matrix folks have been constantly over-promising and under-delivering for almost a decade now. If you've been following long enough, that should be of no surprise. Sorry for the bashing, but I got bitten once, and I see that nothing has changed in substance, so take this as a friendly word of advice: study the history of Matrix, its protocol, its implementations before committing to it seriously or for your org.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  Hey, sorry that you got bitten; it must have been a catastrophic problem judging by how upset your comments are. If XMPP does what you need then I’m genuinely glad for you :)
  - ezst 3y ago
    "upset" isn't perhaps the best word, "bitter" would come closer, and not for my sake necessarily but for those who are still new to this. You and I exchanged 1:1 around 8 years ago on MatrixHQ, when this whole thing was still somewhat new but the cracks were already apparent. Then, the room was crumbling, federation wasn't reliable at all, the overall performance for basic use cases was terrible and self hosting on affordable hardware would mean not federating with matrix.org. When I brought those observations up, you (kindly and approachably) promised that a new design was in the works and weeks away (something about fanning out, or whatever). Fast forward to today, all the points above still hold true in 2023. From a distance, Matrix has had synapse, dendrite, better synapse with workers, conduit, new components added left and right (sliding sync being the latest), and I'm not even talking about the community at large, taken hostage of the uninterrupted pace of breakage. And I couldn't resist laughing out loud at fosdem when hearing this year once again that we are weeks away from what we were promised 10 years ago. I am sorry to be blunt, but I've never seen a project of this magnitude lacking so much in structure and focus. I admit that I regressed to being a complete outsider, and from my perspective on the sidelines it looks like this has no end in sight: Matrix is getting more and more complex and hard for hobbyists to deploy at a small scale/local level, New Vector's hosted instances have a de facto quasi monopoly on the user base and on the protocol implementation. I'd be curious to know how this dissonance fits in your mental model, because this insane technical complexity was sold as the price to pay for not letting servers hold too much network power. Anyways, I don't doubt that this message will be met with a well written and kind reply, listing a bunch of fringe projects and ongoing initiatives to tackle this or that aspect of the same old problem. See you again in 10 years, maybe :)

contact9879 3y ago

It's still in development[1]. Seems like p2p will depend on dendrite so until dendrite is stable, p2p will not be available. [1]: https://arewep2pyet.com/ https://arewep2pyet.com/

Arathorn 3y ago

wtf is going on is that: a) p2p matrix works pretty well as a proof of concept - you can try it from https://arewep2pyet.com https://arewep2pyet.com; it’s not remotely vapourware. b) funding has been spent on core Matrix dev and making Element kick ass (cf Element X) c) an awful lot of very large Matrix + Element deployments (eg LuxChat in Luxembourg, Merkury 2.0 in the Polish MOD, many German local authorities) decide to run Matrix deployments without routing a single $ to support development at either the Matrix Foundation or Element, such are the joys of the Apache license. As a result, we’ve had to pause some of the longer-term R&D. I very much hope that P2P will resume (especially if someone explicitly funds it) and the team is still at Element (but working on sliding sync and account portability). But right now we’re focusing exclusively on fixing the core problems in both Matrix and Element which others in this thread are complaining about. Hence Matrix 2.0, and Element X.

brunoqc 3y ago
Thanks Matthew, I always appreciate your comments. I also do appreciate the Apache license. Sorry for the vapourware comment. It's hard to tell these days. Was the Google self-driving car thing vapourware? It never went anywhere. I know that pinecone worked as a PoC. I ran a node for years, for fun. It's just that it always felt like the progress was crazy slow. The yggdrasil demo was what, 4 years ago? How fucked up will the world be in 4 years? Not that it's your fault. And I care about matrix. I was the one who suggested arewep2pyet.com, I made 1-2 friends use it (matrix), I made 1-2 coworkers use it. Also, zulip threads now or I riot.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  The best way to get P2P Matrix back on track is to find someone to fund it, and point them at funding@matrix.org. Unfortunately it's as simple as that.
- Signez 3y ago
  > Was the Google self-driving car thing vapourware? It never went anywhere. Well, it goes somewhere: people are actually being driven around Pheonix, Arizona [0] using those cars. It's just that it is not named "Google self-driving cars" any more: it was spun into its own company, Waymo [1]. [0]: https://waymo.com/waymo-one-phoenix/ https://waymo.com/waymo-one-phoenix/ [1]: https://waymo.com/ https://waymo.com/
- mxmilkiib 3y ago
  Zulip threads are killer. Shame you can't categorise Zulip streams like you can with channels on Discord though (something that's also related to the IRC/Matrix vs. Discord conversation/content discoverability thing mentioned elsewhere here).
beardog 3y ago
Makes me sad that billions got poured into cryptocurrency-sphere projects but classic p2p barely scrapes by. (I mean by society not new vector)
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  money flows to where it can be multiplied, not where it can be sunk into some social good
- npoc 3y ago
  You probably don't understand the enormous world-corrupting problem with fiat currencies.
panick21_ 3y ago
Its probably the right choice if yo don't have the funds. But it s great that that team is working on account portability. That would be useful in a p2p world anyway. Really hoping Full Matrix p2p will happen. Its would be such a cool capability. Governments wasting so much time and money on so much nonsense software but we can't support and open communication tool.
gwd 3y ago
Just poking around matrix.org, it's not clear exactly how one would "route [some] $[s] to support development" other than paying someone else for a hosted server. Our open-source project just switched to using Matrix from IRC; we're not really big enough to warrant hosting our own Matrix server, so most of us are just using matrix.org. We have some industry funding, and try to support other open source projects when we can; but not on the order of $250/mo (which if I'm reading it right, looks like the cheapest product on element.io -- $5/user/mo, min 50 users). If matrix.org accepts donations, it's not at all clear from your website.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  Well, we need to fix that then. https://matrix.org/membership/ https://matrix.org/membership/ and https://matrix.org/blog/2023/06/membership-program/ https://matrix.org/blog/2023/06/membership-program/ is the way to donate.
  - gwd 3y ago
    I see now that somewhere most of the way down the front page there's a button-type link to "Support Matrix", which leads to a page which points either to membership or to a handful of ways to donate: https://matrix.org/support/ https://matrix.org/support/ I'd suggest you make sure there's a link to that page 1) somewhere in the menus 2) somewhere in the footer. I'd also make a link to the membership page from the "About" page, and a link to the "Support Matrix" page from the "Membership" page, so that people who manage to find the Membership page but aren't ready to become members can support via patreon / whatever. Thanks for all your work on Matrix! Looking forward to seeing the improvements coming down the line!
snvzz 3y ago
>eg LuxChat in Luxembourg, Merkury 2.0 in the Polish MOD, many German local authorities This is extremely sad. They're large tax-funded organizations and should definitely contribute to priorize the needs they definitely have. Ironically, there might be voices pushing for a move to a proprietary solution they would actually have to pay to use, and have much less control over.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ezst 3y ago

Matrix folks have been constantly over-promising and under-delivering for almost a decade now. If you've been following long enough, that should be of no surprise. Sorry for the bashing, but I got bitten once, and I see that nothing has changed in substance, so take this as a friendly word of advice: study the history of Matrix, its protocol, its implementations before committing to it seriously or for your org.

Arathorn 3y ago
Hey, sorry that you got bitten; it must have been a catastrophic problem judging by how upset your comments are. If XMPP does what you need then I’m genuinely glad for you :)
- ezst 3y ago
  "upset" isn't perhaps the best word, "bitter" would come closer, and not for my sake necessarily but for those who are still new to this. You and I exchanged 1:1 around 8 years ago on MatrixHQ, when this whole thing was still somewhat new but the cracks were already apparent. Then, the room was crumbling, federation wasn't reliable at all, the overall performance for basic use cases was terrible and self hosting on affordable hardware would mean not federating with matrix.org. When I brought those observations up, you (kindly and approachably) promised that a new design was in the works and weeks away (something about fanning out, or whatever). Fast forward to today, all the points above still hold true in 2023. From a distance, Matrix has had synapse, dendrite, better synapse with workers, conduit, new components added left and right (sliding sync being the latest), and I'm not even talking about the community at large, taken hostage of the uninterrupted pace of breakage. And I couldn't resist laughing out loud at fosdem when hearing this year once again that we are weeks away from what we were promised 10 years ago. I am sorry to be blunt, but I've never seen a project of this magnitude lacking so much in structure and focus. I admit that I regressed to being a complete outsider, and from my perspective on the sidelines it looks like this has no end in sight: Matrix is getting more and more complex and hard for hobbyists to deploy at a small scale/local level, New Vector's hosted instances have a de facto quasi monopoly on the user base and on the protocol implementation. I'd be curious to know how this dissonance fits in your mental model, because this insane technical complexity was sold as the price to pay for not letting servers hold too much network power. Anyways, I don't doubt that this message will be met with a well written and kind reply, listing a bunch of fringe projects and ongoing initiatives to tackle this or that aspect of the same old problem. See you again in 10 years, maybe :)