6 ms·

> Bristol city council and Avon and Somerset police, who worked together on the system, insist it is in place to protect children, not criminalise them Of cour

> Bristol city council and Avon and Somerset police, who worked together on the system, insist it is in place to protect children, not criminalise them Of course! When has surveillance been used for anything, but protection?

robertlagrant 3y ago
This is a category error. The worst uses of surveillance in general do not apply to this case, unless someone tells us how it does.
- donatj 3y ago
  When you give someone a power, always consider that it will basically always be used in the worst imaginable way. Regardless of any and all lip service to the contrary.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Yes, consider the power itself, not the category the power belongs to. If a school knows 2 extra things about you (on benefits; father in jail for child abuse), that's not the same as 24x7 video surveillance. Risk assess the reality, not the overarching category.
    - throwaway71271 3y ago
      Why dont we just take all the children? Let the state raise them. Father was in jail, he should never see his children ever again. Mother was drunk, take the kids and lets sterlize the parents just in case. I am making an extreme argument, there is obviously a line for CPS, but you have to remember that every system in the modern society is trying to be total. The police wants to stop crime, at all cost, if they could put is all in matrix like cells so we cant move they would. I will leave it to you to think what the ultimate goal of the education system is. The only thing that stops systems from becoming total is our votes and also the fact that they are somewhat adversarial to each other e.g. if one becomes more total it consumes from the other system's power and so each systems fight for its life and multi dimensional predator/pray equilibrium is formed.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        > you have to remember that every system in the modern society is trying to be total No, it's not. A school wanting to know a few things about a child is not "trying to be total". I get the extreme view; it can be warranted, but again, the worst case is not the average case, and we should just analyse the current case on its own merits.
      - rightbyte 3y ago
        The Police is not a paper clip machine. As soon as they consume half of GDP taking more will decrease their funding since they don't produce anything.
      - krisoft 3y ago
        > you have to remember that every system in the modern society is trying to be total. What does “be total” means? I’m not familiar with the phrase. > The police wants to stop crime, at all cost Are you joking? Clearly not. There is so many things they could do if they “want to stop crime at all cost”. > I will leave it to you to think what the ultimate goal of the education system is. I don’t know what you are insinuating. Could you spell it out please?
    - adolph 3y ago
      Yes: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy by Daniel J. Solove https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565 Franz Kafka’s The Trial, which depicts a bureaucracy with inscrutable purposes that uses people’s information to make important decisions about them, yet denies the people the ability to participate in how their information is used. The problems captured by the Kafka metaphor are of a different sort than the problems caused by surveillance. They often do not result in inhibition or chilling. Instead, they are problems of information processing—the storage, use, or analysis of data—rather than information collection. They affect the power relationships between people and the institutions of the modern state. They not only frustrate the individual by creating a sense of helplessness and powerlessness, but they also affect social structure by altering the kind of relationships people have with the institutions that make important decisions about their lives.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Sorry, I don't know how these relate to what I said.
  - badcppdev 3y ago
    Have you thought about the number of powers both large and small that are delegated so that society can operate.
    - diogenes4 3y ago
      If society is operating, it's not operating well.
  - freeopinion 3y ago
    For example, if you allow ordinary people to operate heavy automobiles, somebody is going to use one to intentionally kill somebody else. Did you think about that before you unleashed millions of these killing machines? I'm not excited about developments in Bristol, but introducing extreme paranoia isn't helpful. Just a low level of healthy paranoia is good enough.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
      The climate change crowd probably shouldn't be so glib about cars being murder machines. Supposedly, they are murdering an entire planet. Also, at least where I am, the drunk driving rates are high enough, that murder-by-car isn't exactly uncommon. I don't think your counter-argument hits as hard as you think it does.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  Predatory teachers may use this to get some background details on their targets or to identify potential targets for grooming. Luckily those kinds of teachers are rare, but not unknown. Also, some police are known to be racist, so if a certain officer gets it in their head to harass a nationality or ethnic group, then their unsubstantiated accusations would be entered into the database and this could then affect the families' chances of getting a decent education or indeed, the teachers may decide to not enter them into certain exams if they've been prejudiced by the data.
  - RajT88 3y ago
    > Also, some police are known to be racist Worse yet, most police are at least classist. Poor neighborhoods are policed far more heavily than wealthier neighborhoods. What happens when there's already heavy policing of poorer neighborhoods, and police are trained to "get the bad ones off the streets"? They look for any excuse to arrest and prosecute people in those neighborhoods. Once you have a felony conviction on your record, you're basically unemployable for 10 years (in the US at least). Thus continuing the cycle of poverty. And of course, minorities tend to be disproportionately poor. This makes that cycle worse. Anyone in the proximity of such a felon due to this data collection and aggregation now becomes a target by the police, raising their chances of getting caught up in the legal system and experiencing life-long consequences because of it.
    - adolph 3y ago
      > Poor neighborhoods are policed far more heavily than wealthier neighborhoods. I see this sentiment often. If this were true it would represent a criminal opportunity to victimize "wealthier neighborhoods." As far as I can tell: that does not seem to be the case very often; and victimization rates are higher in "poor neighborhoods." I can see the logic of an argument that excessive legal criminalization induces cycles of harmful involvement in law enforcement and legal systems. However, using the language "policed far more heavily" as opposed to "criminalized far more heavily" places the blame on a convenient-to-scapegoat blue-collar occupation rather than directly upon the powerful people who compose the ever-expanding encyclopedia of laws and regulations.
- ballenf 3y ago
  > worst uses of surveillance in general do not apply to this case So only the "pretty bad" uses of surveillance apply and that's ok? Not sure I understand your point.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    If a school knows that a child must be kept away from their abusive mother, for example, that is what is being lumped in with "surveillance" here. I'm saying the worst cases of surveillance are not appropriate to judge what the school is doing. We should judge what the school is doing on its own merits/demerits.

robertlagrant 3y ago

This is a category error. The worst uses of surveillance in general do not apply to this case, unless someone tells us how it does.

donatj 3y ago
When you give someone a power, always consider that it will basically always be used in the worst imaginable way. Regardless of any and all lip service to the contrary.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Yes, consider the power itself, not the category the power belongs to. If a school knows 2 extra things about you (on benefits; father in jail for child abuse), that's not the same as 24x7 video surveillance. Risk assess the reality, not the overarching category.
  - throwaway71271 3y ago
    Why dont we just take all the children? Let the state raise them. Father was in jail, he should never see his children ever again. Mother was drunk, take the kids and lets sterlize the parents just in case. I am making an extreme argument, there is obviously a line for CPS, but you have to remember that every system in the modern society is trying to be total. The police wants to stop crime, at all cost, if they could put is all in matrix like cells so we cant move they would. I will leave it to you to think what the ultimate goal of the education system is. The only thing that stops systems from becoming total is our votes and also the fact that they are somewhat adversarial to each other e.g. if one becomes more total it consumes from the other system's power and so each systems fight for its life and multi dimensional predator/pray equilibrium is formed.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > you have to remember that every system in the modern society is trying to be total No, it's not. A school wanting to know a few things about a child is not "trying to be total". I get the extreme view; it can be warranted, but again, the worst case is not the average case, and we should just analyse the current case on its own merits.
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      The Police is not a paper clip machine. As soon as they consume half of GDP taking more will decrease their funding since they don't produce anything.
    - krisoft 3y ago
      > you have to remember that every system in the modern society is trying to be total. What does “be total” means? I’m not familiar with the phrase. > The police wants to stop crime, at all cost Are you joking? Clearly not. There is so many things they could do if they “want to stop crime at all cost”. > I will leave it to you to think what the ultimate goal of the education system is. I don’t know what you are insinuating. Could you spell it out please?
  - adolph 3y ago
    Yes: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy by Daniel J. Solove https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565 Franz Kafka’s The Trial, which depicts a bureaucracy with inscrutable purposes that uses people’s information to make important decisions about them, yet denies the people the ability to participate in how their information is used. The problems captured by the Kafka metaphor are of a different sort than the problems caused by surveillance. They often do not result in inhibition or chilling. Instead, they are problems of information processing—the storage, use, or analysis of data—rather than information collection. They affect the power relationships between people and the institutions of the modern state. They not only frustrate the individual by creating a sense of helplessness and powerlessness, but they also affect social structure by altering the kind of relationships people have with the institutions that make important decisions about their lives.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Sorry, I don't know how these relate to what I said.
- badcppdev 3y ago
  Have you thought about the number of powers both large and small that are delegated so that society can operate.
  - diogenes4 3y ago
    If society is operating, it's not operating well.
- freeopinion 3y ago
  For example, if you allow ordinary people to operate heavy automobiles, somebody is going to use one to intentionally kill somebody else. Did you think about that before you unleashed millions of these killing machines? I'm not excited about developments in Bristol, but introducing extreme paranoia isn't helpful. Just a low level of healthy paranoia is good enough.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    The climate change crowd probably shouldn't be so glib about cars being murder machines. Supposedly, they are murdering an entire planet. Also, at least where I am, the drunk driving rates are high enough, that murder-by-car isn't exactly uncommon. I don't think your counter-argument hits as hard as you think it does.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
Predatory teachers may use this to get some background details on their targets or to identify potential targets for grooming. Luckily those kinds of teachers are rare, but not unknown. Also, some police are known to be racist, so if a certain officer gets it in their head to harass a nationality or ethnic group, then their unsubstantiated accusations would be entered into the database and this could then affect the families' chances of getting a decent education or indeed, the teachers may decide to not enter them into certain exams if they've been prejudiced by the data.
- RajT88 3y ago
  > Also, some police are known to be racist Worse yet, most police are at least classist. Poor neighborhoods are policed far more heavily than wealthier neighborhoods. What happens when there's already heavy policing of poorer neighborhoods, and police are trained to "get the bad ones off the streets"? They look for any excuse to arrest and prosecute people in those neighborhoods. Once you have a felony conviction on your record, you're basically unemployable for 10 years (in the US at least). Thus continuing the cycle of poverty. And of course, minorities tend to be disproportionately poor. This makes that cycle worse. Anyone in the proximity of such a felon due to this data collection and aggregation now becomes a target by the police, raising their chances of getting caught up in the legal system and experiencing life-long consequences because of it.
  - adolph 3y ago
    > Poor neighborhoods are policed far more heavily than wealthier neighborhoods. I see this sentiment often. If this were true it would represent a criminal opportunity to victimize "wealthier neighborhoods." As far as I can tell: that does not seem to be the case very often; and victimization rates are higher in "poor neighborhoods." I can see the logic of an argument that excessive legal criminalization induces cycles of harmful involvement in law enforcement and legal systems. However, using the language "policed far more heavily" as opposed to "criminalized far more heavily" places the blame on a convenient-to-scapegoat blue-collar occupation rather than directly upon the powerful people who compose the ever-expanding encyclopedia of laws and regulations.
ballenf 3y ago
> worst uses of surveillance in general do not apply to this case So only the "pretty bad" uses of surveillance apply and that's ok? Not sure I understand your point.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  If a school knows that a child must be kept away from their abusive mother, for example, that is what is being lumped in with "surveillance" here. I'm saying the worst cases of surveillance are not appropriate to judge what the school is doing. We should judge what the school is doing on its own merits/demerits.