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P.S. If you don't think instant fast-food/grocery delivery is not a luxury, to put it politely (I really don't want to) I'm of the respectful* opinion that you

P.S. If you don't think instant fast-food/grocery delivery is not a luxury, to put it politely (I really don't want to) I'm of the respectful* opinion that you might wrong here. Also if you think these people who are on welfare are mostly normal hard working expedient enterprising people who just happened to get a bad hand. Again I have politely* with all due respect* disagree. I grew up around poor people all my life, in India, in the UK and finally America. Almost always its their own doing. Almost always its people who can't help themselves. This is not usual false virtue signalling privilege checking either, when I say grew up around I mean family, neighbours, friends. People I lived with, people I grew up with and hanged around with. Its always either people who fall under these categories or people who have never interacted with the former that come up with these postmodern notions and utopian solutions.

hotpotamus 3y ago
> Almost always its people who can't help themselves. Well then maybe they need help from someone else.
- pc_edwin 3y ago
  I don't disagree but it should proportional with strings attached. In a civilised society nobody should starve to death or die because they can't afford healthcare. But neither of these things should come without any strings. These people only exist because we fortunately live in a society where most of the rough edges are nerfed out. That doesn't mean we should be accepting or normalising this. It should be frowned upon and be something not to be proud of. Something like: You are poor. Your living off other people. You provide less than zero value to society. However, heres a path to redemption: If you commit to XYZ we will assist you in your journey to becoming worthy of participating in civilised society. If you chose to not commit then society reserves the right to forsake you. P.S. Lol I know this post is going to get downvoted to oblivion probably even flagged. Deep down you guys know I'm right but you'd rather live in a world with compounding dysfunction than accept uncomfortable truths.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    Supposedly we live in a world of compounding wealth rather than dysfunction, or so I am told, though I agree it seems a bit hard to believe. If we want to be start talking about uncomfortable truths, then I always think of all the other "productive" work these people could do - robbing homes/cars, kidnapping peoples' children for ransom, selling black market goods/drugs, etc... The things I might be inclined to take up if I was repeatedly told I wasn't fit for society. The police sure don't seem all that interested in working anymore either, so it may be the case that crime does pay after all.
    - dahfizz 3y ago
      So tired of this notion that poor people have no morals. Someone who is capable of kidnapping a child for ransom is seriously fucked up. Paying that person off with welfare so they don't "have" to resort to heinous crimes, as if that's the default, is unconscionable.
      - true_religion 3y ago
        The moral reasoning behind kidnapping is: no one gets hurt, these rich people just have to live in the same conditions we do everyday for a week or two, then their parents will pay out of pocket change more money than we can make in our entire lives. That logic isn’t really true, but it’s what kidnappers tell themselves. No one ever feels like they are truly immoral.
        dahfizz 3y ago
        I'm not really concerned with what the criminal tells themself. I am concerned about society at large sympathizing and excusing criminal behavior because the criminal was poor.
        pc_edwin 3y ago
        I'm sympathetic to your comment but I do think he has a point, it seems both of you guys are speaking past each other. I think modern society is quick to cast criminality as either circumstantial or biological. There is a non zero percentage of the population that are sociopaths and psychopaths with a top percentile disagreeableness trait yet most of these people are fully integrated functioning members of society. Although their might be predispositions, I think its moral narratives that turn an otherwise "normal" person into criminality. This goes back to your point, we should not be empathising of excusing those among us who have missed the mark with their moral narratives and downstream actions that follow.
SkipperCat 3y ago
There are a lot of people who use government assistance responsibly. There is also a lot of people who abuse the system. But SNAP and other benefits are 1.9% of our Federal budget, so I'm not going to sweat too much about waste/fraud/abuse. We need to fix the inequalities that remove hardworking middle class values from our society. That's the real problem. Until that happens, I'm not going to demand anyone suffer or go hungry (even if there is fraud in the system). I say this not because I'm trying to virtue signal. I say it because its just such a tiny amount of money and not worth fighting over. Also, FWIW, I live in NYC. I see people use SNAP benefits to buy the stupidest things. Its frustrating but the alternative just seems a lot worse.

hotpotamus 3y ago

> Almost always its people who can't help themselves. Well then maybe they need help from someone else.

pc_edwin 3y ago
I don't disagree but it should proportional with strings attached. In a civilised society nobody should starve to death or die because they can't afford healthcare. But neither of these things should come without any strings. These people only exist because we fortunately live in a society where most of the rough edges are nerfed out. That doesn't mean we should be accepting or normalising this. It should be frowned upon and be something not to be proud of. Something like: You are poor. Your living off other people. You provide less than zero value to society. However, heres a path to redemption: If you commit to XYZ we will assist you in your journey to becoming worthy of participating in civilised society. If you chose to not commit then society reserves the right to forsake you. P.S. Lol I know this post is going to get downvoted to oblivion probably even flagged. Deep down you guys know I'm right but you'd rather live in a world with compounding dysfunction than accept uncomfortable truths.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Supposedly we live in a world of compounding wealth rather than dysfunction, or so I am told, though I agree it seems a bit hard to believe. If we want to be start talking about uncomfortable truths, then I always think of all the other "productive" work these people could do - robbing homes/cars, kidnapping peoples' children for ransom, selling black market goods/drugs, etc... The things I might be inclined to take up if I was repeatedly told I wasn't fit for society. The police sure don't seem all that interested in working anymore either, so it may be the case that crime does pay after all.
  - dahfizz 3y ago
    So tired of this notion that poor people have no morals. Someone who is capable of kidnapping a child for ransom is seriously fucked up. Paying that person off with welfare so they don't "have" to resort to heinous crimes, as if that's the default, is unconscionable.
    - true_religion 3y ago
      The moral reasoning behind kidnapping is: no one gets hurt, these rich people just have to live in the same conditions we do everyday for a week or two, then their parents will pay out of pocket change more money than we can make in our entire lives. That logic isn’t really true, but it’s what kidnappers tell themselves. No one ever feels like they are truly immoral.
      - dahfizz 3y ago
        I'm not really concerned with what the criminal tells themself. I am concerned about society at large sympathizing and excusing criminal behavior because the criminal was poor.
        pc_edwin 3y ago
        I'm sympathetic to your comment but I do think he has a point, it seems both of you guys are speaking past each other. I think modern society is quick to cast criminality as either circumstantial or biological. There is a non zero percentage of the population that are sociopaths and psychopaths with a top percentile disagreeableness trait yet most of these people are fully integrated functioning members of society. Although their might be predispositions, I think its moral narratives that turn an otherwise "normal" person into criminality. This goes back to your point, we should not be empathising of excusing those among us who have missed the mark with their moral narratives and downstream actions that follow.

SkipperCat 3y ago

There are a lot of people who use government assistance responsibly. There is also a lot of people who abuse the system. But SNAP and other benefits are 1.9% of our Federal budget, so I'm not going to sweat too much about waste/fraud/abuse. We need to fix the inequalities that remove hardworking middle class values from our society. That's the real problem. Until that happens, I'm not going to demand anyone suffer or go hungry (even if there is fraud in the system). I say this not because I'm trying to virtue signal. I say it because its just such a tiny amount of money and not worth fighting over. Also, FWIW, I live in NYC. I see people use SNAP benefits to buy the stupidest things. Its frustrating but the alternative just seems a lot worse.