3 ms·

I find the title to be pretty accurate and I am by no means a native speaker

K0balt 3y ago
It definitely can be interpreted to mean that the telemetry is opt-in, or that it is opt-out. (“Opt-in by default” is a double positive, a less common sibling of the dreaded double negative)
- Keirmot 3y ago
  Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t a double positive just a positive while a double negative is a positive? Opt-in by default: you are in You can’t not select opt-in: you are in
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Y_Y 3y ago
    Yeah right
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    That's correct, but it's a relatively new thing. 150 years ago two or more negatives meant an emphatic no. The switch was caused by Frege and contemporaries.
  - K0balt 3y ago
    Yeah, this is more complex than a double positive isn’t it. Hmm. “Opt in , by default” would seem to mean you have to opt in, unless some unnamed external condition was met, so normally you would have to choose to participate… which is the opposite of this case , where to NOT participate you must, by default, opt OUT. And if you do not you are automatically committed to participate.
ptx 3y ago
"Opt" means to "To choose; select" [0]. If you opt in (i.e. make the choice to go in), that implies that you were not already in. In other words, it implies that the default (when you don't make a choice) is "out", i.e. disabled. "Opt-in" and "opt-out" describe what the default is, so adding "by default" doesn't make any sense. If you can choose to go in ("opt-in"), then the default is "out". If you can choose to go out ("opt-out"), then the default is "in". Some companies appear to be trying to twist this into "The choice is yours, and we have taken the liberty of making that choice on your behalf.". [0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt#English
- jstummbillig 3y ago
  Opt in by participation is implicit all the time. If I play soccer I am not "opting in" to get hit by a ball, but rest assured, it is going to happen. There are topics dear to every subgroups heart, that the members will claim, surely must be exempt from this. As far as I can tell, the exemptions are mostly arbitrary.
  - ricardobeat 3y ago
    You’re completely ignoring the context. This is essentially about checkboxes. “Enabled by default” would mean tracking is always on, but doesn’t tell you if it can be disabled by the user. In the realm of privacy choices in software, we then started referring to these as “opt-in” (default off) or “opt-out” (default on) to communicate the default setting + the ability to change it. Advertising trackers, for example, are mandated by law to be “opt-in” (they pre-select the checkbox for you of course, without submitting, but that’s a whole other story).
  - ptx 3y ago
    In the soccer scenario, as you say, the only choice to make is whether to participate. Whether to get hit by the ball can't be chosen independently. So the only opting you can do is playing (and getting hit) or not playing (and not getting hit). In that scenario, the default is to not play soccer. If you want to play, you have to choose it, i.e. opt to play soccer, i.e. "opt in". So the default is that you're "out". Thus, playing soccer is "opt-in". If people were born into soccer matches and had to actively try to escape, that would be "opt-out". You make a choice (opt) to escape out of the soccer match. Notice that "opt-in" and "opt-out" describe the inverse of the default value: "opt-in" is the same as "out by default" and "opt-out" the same as "in by default". Mixing these phrases with opposite meanings (e.g. "opt-in by default") creates confusion, perhaps intentionally, about what the default value is.

It definitely can be interpreted to mean that the telemetry is opt-in, or that it is opt-out. (“Opt-in by default” is a double positive, a less common sibling of the dreaded double negative)

Keirmot 3y ago
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t a double positive just a positive while a double negative is a positive? Opt-in by default: you are in You can’t not select opt-in: you are in
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Y_Y 3y ago
  Yeah right
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  That's correct, but it's a relatively new thing. 150 years ago two or more negatives meant an emphatic no. The switch was caused by Frege and contemporaries.
- K0balt 3y ago
  Yeah, this is more complex than a double positive isn’t it. Hmm. “Opt in , by default” would seem to mean you have to opt in, unless some unnamed external condition was met, so normally you would have to choose to participate… which is the opposite of this case , where to NOT participate you must, by default, opt OUT. And if you do not you are automatically committed to participate.

ptx 3y ago

"Opt" means to "To choose; select" [0]. If you opt in (i.e. make the choice to go in), that implies that you were not already in. In other words, it implies that the default (when you don't make a choice) is "out", i.e. disabled. "Opt-in" and "opt-out" describe what the default is, so adding "by default" doesn't make any sense. If you can choose to go in ("opt-in"), then the default is "out". If you can choose to go out ("opt-out"), then the default is "in". Some companies appear to be trying to twist this into "The choice is yours, and we have taken the liberty of making that choice on your behalf.". [0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt#English

jstummbillig 3y ago
Opt in by participation is implicit all the time. If I play soccer I am not "opting in" to get hit by a ball, but rest assured, it is going to happen. There are topics dear to every subgroups heart, that the members will claim, surely must be exempt from this. As far as I can tell, the exemptions are mostly arbitrary.
- ricardobeat 3y ago
  You’re completely ignoring the context. This is essentially about checkboxes. “Enabled by default” would mean tracking is always on, but doesn’t tell you if it can be disabled by the user. In the realm of privacy choices in software, we then started referring to these as “opt-in” (default off) or “opt-out” (default on) to communicate the default setting + the ability to change it. Advertising trackers, for example, are mandated by law to be “opt-in” (they pre-select the checkbox for you of course, without submitting, but that’s a whole other story).
- ptx 3y ago
  In the soccer scenario, as you say, the only choice to make is whether to participate. Whether to get hit by the ball can't be chosen independently. So the only opting you can do is playing (and getting hit) or not playing (and not getting hit). In that scenario, the default is to not play soccer. If you want to play, you have to choose it, i.e. opt to play soccer, i.e. "opt in". So the default is that you're "out". Thus, playing soccer is "opt-in". If people were born into soccer matches and had to actively try to escape, that would be "opt-out". You make a choice (opt) to escape out of the soccer match. Notice that "opt-in" and "opt-out" describe the inverse of the default value: "opt-in" is the same as "out by default" and "opt-out" the same as "in by default". Mixing these phrases with opposite meanings (e.g. "opt-in by default") creates confusion, perhaps intentionally, about what the default value is.