20 ms·

India's biggest tech centers named as cyber crime hotspots

204 points by beardyw 3y ago

fareesh 3y ago
A lot of these operations have a full fledged office and everything. Unsure whether it's corruption or incompetence or both that prevents them from shutting them down and arresting everyone involved.
- waihtis 3y ago
  no mention of revenue generated by this activity, but it's not far-fetched to suggest it's a significant source of income for locals and thus a blind eye is turned to it, willfully or via bribery
  - fareesh 3y ago
    The scams target locals too, it isn't limited to international victims only
- shmde 3y ago
  Cops are paid a share most probably for them to continue scamming.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  The scam centres probably don't market them self as scam centres if the authorities ask. To prove that they are scamming people is probably quite hard.
- reisse 3y ago
  The problem is, these call centers are more outsiders problem than Indian problem. Indian authorities have zero interest in shutting them down. Call centers are not scamming Indians, there are no complaints from local people to police, and probably police gets their share too.
  - slowmotiony 3y ago
    There's the reputation loss in the eyes of the international community, shouldn't the authorities have some interest in not letting India be perceived as a country that allows theft and organized crime?
    - user_7832 3y ago
      I doubt the Indian Govt doesn’t care about this. But it’s likely that the overworked policeman would rather solve an extra murder case than go after a scam office. Iirc there have been arrests made in the past by the Kolkata police, but it’s probably a whack-a-mole x inadequate resource problem.
    - reisse 3y ago
      Have you seen politicians accusing Indian government in allowing theft and organised crime? Because if not, there is no reputation loss. And I think politicians can close their eyes on the few scammers here and there for the access to Indian markets. Besides, there is an angle of view "rich westerners extortioned our country for centuries, and now are accusing us with the same because of few scammers we're certainly honestly (not) trying to catch" which will be very popular in a certain parts of the world.
      - llm_nerd 3y ago
        "Because if not, there is no reputation loss." Much of the world views India as a corrupt, low-trust society, and it is things like scam centres operating as full blown, in the open operations that built and maintains this reputation. And of course there are costs. China has shot miles ahead of India. Despite all of the advantages India enjoyed it has a GDP per capita below Congo. An economy with a strong scam and corruption basis will always falter. Even if you think this is some sort of poetic justice tax[1] on ugly Westerners, this sort of criminality always goes hand in hand with corruption at all levels of government, in policing, and so on. Always. [1] quoting from the Narcissist's prayer: "And if I did, you deserved it.". Criminals through history have justified their actions by claiming that it is merely righting some historic wrong.
- assholeconny 3y ago
  [dead]
- oblio 3y ago
  Why would they be shut down? They're probably registered as call centers and at least some of their income is declared, thus legal. Especially if they don't target anyone local, who's going to notice, who's going to tell and lose their job or burn bridges?
  - fareesh 3y ago
    There are plenty of scams targeting locals too though
saagarjha 3y ago
I think this is a somewhat strange way to put together a conclusion. A lot of cybercrime comes from India. A handful of cities are overrepresented in when it comes to software engineering talent. So it seems natural that a lot of people, both good and bad, would be concentrated there? It would be like a report that says "25% of financial crime in the US comes from New York City": well, duh, that's because all the financial activity happens there.
- supriyo-biswas 3y ago
  The article confounds cybercrime and the IT industry. People working out of offices in Indian cities are not criminals since they work for legitimate businesses; the concentration of scam operations in said cities is not related to the presence of the IT industry, nor would scammers allocate resources inefficiently by buying office space, which isn’t required to run a criminal enterprise and may be detrimental by way of drawing attention and scrutiny which would have been avoided otherwise. (Downvoters may want to address the problems with my comment; although I feel this is an issue which people feel strongly about, so a rational analysis is often foregone in the pursuit of vindication.)
  - mattw2121 3y ago
    My understanding of scammers in India has been formed by Youtube videos, where the host "scams the scammer", and from the Reply All podcast (https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nh3wk https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nh3wk). Saying that scammers do not buy office space doesn't seem correct. Are you saying they wouldn't buy (or lease/rent) office space? If so, the Youtube videos and Reply All directly contradict that.
    - spacecadet 3y ago
      Even "mobs" operated as legit businesses. Agreed, to suggest some of the criminals would not attempt the same ruse is nieve.
      - 3y ago
pjmq 3y ago
If you follow Youtubers like Jim Browning that tackle this sort of scam-based cybercrime operations then this will come as absolutely no surprise to you.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Scam-based cybercrime is an offshoot of the BPO and Call Center industry. This is why cities with a weak software scene but strong BPO scene like Kolkata are highly represented.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    What is bpo?
    - 55555 3y ago
      Business Process Outsourcing. It typically means call centers / customer support centers / etc.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - imiric 3y ago
    This is a rampant industry in the US as well. The Telemarketers mini-series shows how these call centers operate, the scams they run, how police associations are involved, and how the government is basically complicit with what they're doing. This must be even easier and more profitable to operate from a more corrupt country with no regulations or law enforcement of these activities. AI will make this industry even more successful. Telemarketers read from a script anyway, so it's only a matter of time until these scams are fully automated. We're starting to see some of this already, but it will be fully adopted in a few years.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      There is regulation for this in India (eg. Each call center needs to be licensed, needs an actual registered owner/point of contact, etc) but if you are doing this with political cover you might be protected. For example, if I am running a scam call center in Kolkata, I'd need to pay off the political party that controls that state - the TMC. And similar stuff happens in other states among all parties. That said, scam calling is a uniquely large industry in Bihar and West Bengal as neither have a significant tech industry, and see very little foreign investment, so there is less incentive for state politicians to crack down on something that generates easy money. Most BPO and Software outsourcing companies in Kolkata and Patna tend to be the old school Indian outsourcing companies that got priced out of Bangalore/Gurgaon/Hyderabad/Pune because they have low margins, and thus pay lower salaries (around $3-7k a year compared to $20-70k a year in Tier 1 cities or product driven companies)
pomian 3y ago
The interesting question of course, is who is paying for these services.
decremental 3y ago
[dead]
darkstar_16 3y ago
Interesting that they used "Bharat" in the name. Without going political, sounds like an article one can ignore.
- martin_a 3y ago
  By having a look at the Wikipedia article [1] I don't see how this name would be a problem?!? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_India#Bh%C4%81rata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_India#Bh%C4%81rata
  - nsvd 3y ago
    The term has become a political dog whistle recently.
    - yipbub 3y ago
      Yes, but this doesn't seem like that usage. It's neutral on those issues.
  - jowea 3y ago
    There's been some political controversy with the right-wing government favouring the Bharat name very recently. Nobody seems to have updated the Wikipedia article yet.
    - morbidious 3y ago
      These right-wing, left-wing terms have come from the west and violated with a negative connotation from the west. Don't defile anything in the east with these vile implications that the western nazis have come to associate with. We in the east are civilized people, not genocidal barbarians. Thank you.
- econorew 3y ago
  [flagged]
morbidious 3y ago
While the article and research states that majority of fraud comes from UPI (47.1%), it seems as though the fraud involves the victim voluntarily entering their pin to transfer funds to the perpetrator.[1] Perhaps this could be a good time for UPI apps to educate their users on fraudulent transactions. But a part of me thinks this is also trying to boost the credit/debit card industry which has slumped due to UPI's success. I just saw a VISA ad today showcasing their tap to pay feature, which is a strong contender to UPI. [1]: https://www.businesstoday.in/tech-today/trending/story/upi-scams-on-the-rise-heres-how-you-can-protect-yourself-383512-2023-05-30 https://www.businesstoday.in/tech-today/trending/story/upi-s...
- __rito__ 3y ago
  You are totally off the mark here. Before UPI, debit cards were there. And people were social engineered to tell the scammer the One Time Password received in their cells required for the withdrawal/transfer. As a person who receieved ~20 such calls and has known half a dozen victims personally, and my dad being a previous public sector bank administrator, I assure you UPI has not changed anything when it comes to scams. The calls go like this: "I am the branch manager of your bank. Your account will be closed in 24 hours due to <totally made up, unplausible problem>. I need you to tell me your 16 digit Debit Card number. Now your CVV, now the OTP. Okay thank you." Thus, less educated and even educated people are scammed. They just ignore (or something) the money amount in the OTP messages. When I receive such calls, I just ask back- "Okay, Mr. Resepected Branch Manager, which branch are you the manager of?", and they mumble or disconnect. One time a guy said, " the main branch". I was like, dude, the "main branch manager" sits with the Prime Minister and such, doesn't call small-time customers like me. And he disconnected. These tell me that the number leaks from not the bank employees/db, but elsewhere. I threatened to call the police on one scammer. He asked to have mercy and not to call the police because it was their business. :') It was 4-5 years ago. Even bank employees and admins receive calls from scammers identifying as bank employees. And, yeah, the government spends a huge amount of money spreading awareness. But the kind of people susceptible to this don't ever learn.
atlanta90210 3y ago
[dead]
2Gkashmiri 3y ago
I am an attorney based out of srinagar, j&k. I have seen my city's name being tarnished by these scammers and call centers. I am willing to help anyone wanting to put an end to them. I have some bureaucratic access to tax authorities who would be more than welcome to be in the limelight. I have made this offer before on HN so doing it once again. Pro bono work. Anonymous on my part. I want to fuck these bad people up. Let me help you.
- turbo_fart 3y ago
  You need to message kitboga on YouTube. He is a big deal in indian call centre anti-scamming. Also he is hilarious and a genius
  - 2Gkashmiri 3y ago
    i have no google account so yeah!!!!
riddleronroof 3y ago
Very odd that criminals go where the money is
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
anukin 3y ago
The headline is misleading once you read the article. The biggest tech centres in India are Bangalore, Hyderabad, Gurgaon and Pune. The centers of crime according to the article are Bharatpur, Mathura and Gurgaon. The cases are rising in Bangalore according to the article. How does these facts convert to the headline of `India's biggest tech centers are cyber crime hot spots`?

204 points by beardyw 3y ago

A lot of these operations have a full fledged office and everything. Unsure whether it's corruption or incompetence or both that prevents them from shutting them down and arresting everyone involved.

waihtis 3y ago
no mention of revenue generated by this activity, but it's not far-fetched to suggest it's a significant source of income for locals and thus a blind eye is turned to it, willfully or via bribery
- fareesh 3y ago
  The scams target locals too, it isn't limited to international victims only
shmde 3y ago
Cops are paid a share most probably for them to continue scamming.
rightbyte 3y ago
The scam centres probably don't market them self as scam centres if the authorities ask. To prove that they are scamming people is probably quite hard.
reisse 3y ago
The problem is, these call centers are more outsiders problem than Indian problem. Indian authorities have zero interest in shutting them down. Call centers are not scamming Indians, there are no complaints from local people to police, and probably police gets their share too.
- slowmotiony 3y ago
  There's the reputation loss in the eyes of the international community, shouldn't the authorities have some interest in not letting India be perceived as a country that allows theft and organized crime?
  - user_7832 3y ago
    I doubt the Indian Govt doesn’t care about this. But it’s likely that the overworked policeman would rather solve an extra murder case than go after a scam office. Iirc there have been arrests made in the past by the Kolkata police, but it’s probably a whack-a-mole x inadequate resource problem.
  - reisse 3y ago
    Have you seen politicians accusing Indian government in allowing theft and organised crime? Because if not, there is no reputation loss. And I think politicians can close their eyes on the few scammers here and there for the access to Indian markets. Besides, there is an angle of view "rich westerners extortioned our country for centuries, and now are accusing us with the same because of few scammers we're certainly honestly (not) trying to catch" which will be very popular in a certain parts of the world.
    - llm_nerd 3y ago
      "Because if not, there is no reputation loss." Much of the world views India as a corrupt, low-trust society, and it is things like scam centres operating as full blown, in the open operations that built and maintains this reputation. And of course there are costs. China has shot miles ahead of India. Despite all of the advantages India enjoyed it has a GDP per capita below Congo. An economy with a strong scam and corruption basis will always falter. Even if you think this is some sort of poetic justice tax[1] on ugly Westerners, this sort of criminality always goes hand in hand with corruption at all levels of government, in policing, and so on. Always. [1] quoting from the Narcissist's prayer: "And if I did, you deserved it.". Criminals through history have justified their actions by claiming that it is merely righting some historic wrong.
assholeconny 3y ago
[dead]
oblio 3y ago
Why would they be shut down? They're probably registered as call centers and at least some of their income is declared, thus legal. Especially if they don't target anyone local, who's going to notice, who's going to tell and lose their job or burn bridges?
- fareesh 3y ago
  There are plenty of scams targeting locals too though

saagarjha 3y ago

I think this is a somewhat strange way to put together a conclusion. A lot of cybercrime comes from India. A handful of cities are overrepresented in when it comes to software engineering talent. So it seems natural that a lot of people, both good and bad, would be concentrated there? It would be like a report that says "25% of financial crime in the US comes from New York City": well, duh, that's because all the financial activity happens there.

supriyo-biswas 3y ago
The article confounds cybercrime and the IT industry. People working out of offices in Indian cities are not criminals since they work for legitimate businesses; the concentration of scam operations in said cities is not related to the presence of the IT industry, nor would scammers allocate resources inefficiently by buying office space, which isn’t required to run a criminal enterprise and may be detrimental by way of drawing attention and scrutiny which would have been avoided otherwise. (Downvoters may want to address the problems with my comment; although I feel this is an issue which people feel strongly about, so a rational analysis is often foregone in the pursuit of vindication.)
- mattw2121 3y ago
  My understanding of scammers in India has been formed by Youtube videos, where the host "scams the scammer", and from the Reply All podcast (https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nh3wk https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/6nh3wk). Saying that scammers do not buy office space doesn't seem correct. Are you saying they wouldn't buy (or lease/rent) office space? If so, the Youtube videos and Reply All directly contradict that.
  - spacecadet 3y ago
    Even "mobs" operated as legit businesses. Agreed, to suggest some of the criminals would not attempt the same ruse is nieve.
    - 3y ago

pjmq 3y ago

If you follow Youtubers like Jim Browning that tackle this sort of scam-based cybercrime operations then this will come as absolutely no surprise to you.

alephnerd 3y ago
Scam-based cybercrime is an offshoot of the BPO and Call Center industry. This is why cities with a weak software scene but strong BPO scene like Kolkata are highly represented.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  What is bpo?
  - 55555 3y ago
    Business Process Outsourcing. It typically means call centers / customer support centers / etc.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- imiric 3y ago
  This is a rampant industry in the US as well. The Telemarketers mini-series shows how these call centers operate, the scams they run, how police associations are involved, and how the government is basically complicit with what they're doing. This must be even easier and more profitable to operate from a more corrupt country with no regulations or law enforcement of these activities. AI will make this industry even more successful. Telemarketers read from a script anyway, so it's only a matter of time until these scams are fully automated. We're starting to see some of this already, but it will be fully adopted in a few years.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    There is regulation for this in India (eg. Each call center needs to be licensed, needs an actual registered owner/point of contact, etc) but if you are doing this with political cover you might be protected. For example, if I am running a scam call center in Kolkata, I'd need to pay off the political party that controls that state - the TMC. And similar stuff happens in other states among all parties. That said, scam calling is a uniquely large industry in Bihar and West Bengal as neither have a significant tech industry, and see very little foreign investment, so there is less incentive for state politicians to crack down on something that generates easy money. Most BPO and Software outsourcing companies in Kolkata and Patna tend to be the old school Indian outsourcing companies that got priced out of Bangalore/Gurgaon/Hyderabad/Pune because they have low margins, and thus pay lower salaries (around $3-7k a year compared to $20-70k a year in Tier 1 cities or product driven companies)

pomian 3y ago

The interesting question of course, is who is paying for these services.

decremental 3y ago

[dead]

darkstar_16 3y ago

Interesting that they used "Bharat" in the name. Without going political, sounds like an article one can ignore.

martin_a 3y ago
By having a look at the Wikipedia article [1] I don't see how this name would be a problem?!? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_India#Bh%C4%81rata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_India#Bh%C4%81rata
- nsvd 3y ago
  The term has become a political dog whistle recently.
  - yipbub 3y ago
    Yes, but this doesn't seem like that usage. It's neutral on those issues.
- jowea 3y ago
  There's been some political controversy with the right-wing government favouring the Bharat name very recently. Nobody seems to have updated the Wikipedia article yet.
  - morbidious 3y ago
    These right-wing, left-wing terms have come from the west and violated with a negative connotation from the west. Don't defile anything in the east with these vile implications that the western nazis have come to associate with. We in the east are civilized people, not genocidal barbarians. Thank you.
econorew 3y ago
[flagged]

morbidious 3y ago

While the article and research states that majority of fraud comes from UPI (47.1%), it seems as though the fraud involves the victim voluntarily entering their pin to transfer funds to the perpetrator.[1] Perhaps this could be a good time for UPI apps to educate their users on fraudulent transactions. But a part of me thinks this is also trying to boost the credit/debit card industry which has slumped due to UPI's success. I just saw a VISA ad today showcasing their tap to pay feature, which is a strong contender to UPI. [1]: https://www.businesstoday.in/tech-today/trending/story/upi-scams-on-the-rise-heres-how-you-can-protect-yourself-383512-2023-05-30 https://www.businesstoday.in/tech-today/trending/story/upi-s...

__rito__ 3y ago
You are totally off the mark here. Before UPI, debit cards were there. And people were social engineered to tell the scammer the One Time Password received in their cells required for the withdrawal/transfer. As a person who receieved ~20 such calls and has known half a dozen victims personally, and my dad being a previous public sector bank administrator, I assure you UPI has not changed anything when it comes to scams. The calls go like this: "I am the branch manager of your bank. Your account will be closed in 24 hours due to <totally made up, unplausible problem>. I need you to tell me your 16 digit Debit Card number. Now your CVV, now the OTP. Okay thank you." Thus, less educated and even educated people are scammed. They just ignore (or something) the money amount in the OTP messages. When I receive such calls, I just ask back- "Okay, Mr. Resepected Branch Manager, which branch are you the manager of?", and they mumble or disconnect. One time a guy said, " the main branch". I was like, dude, the "main branch manager" sits with the Prime Minister and such, doesn't call small-time customers like me. And he disconnected. These tell me that the number leaks from not the bank employees/db, but elsewhere. I threatened to call the police on one scammer. He asked to have mercy and not to call the police because it was their business. :') It was 4-5 years ago. Even bank employees and admins receive calls from scammers identifying as bank employees. And, yeah, the government spends a huge amount of money spreading awareness. But the kind of people susceptible to this don't ever learn.

atlanta90210 3y ago

[dead]

2Gkashmiri 3y ago

I am an attorney based out of srinagar, j&k. I have seen my city's name being tarnished by these scammers and call centers. I am willing to help anyone wanting to put an end to them. I have some bureaucratic access to tax authorities who would be more than welcome to be in the limelight. I have made this offer before on HN so doing it once again. Pro bono work. Anonymous on my part. I want to fuck these bad people up. Let me help you.

turbo_fart 3y ago
You need to message kitboga on YouTube. He is a big deal in indian call centre anti-scamming. Also he is hilarious and a genius
- 2Gkashmiri 3y ago
  i have no google account so yeah!!!!

riddleronroof 3y ago

Very odd that criminals go where the money is

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

anukin 3y ago

The headline is misleading once you read the article. The biggest tech centres in India are Bangalore, Hyderabad, Gurgaon and Pune. The centers of crime according to the article are Bharatpur, Mathura and Gurgaon. The cases are rising in Bangalore according to the article. How does these facts convert to the headline of `India's biggest tech centers are cyber crime hot spots`?